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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 2:39PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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when you look at a Wizard power and Fighter power, remove all the "fluff" and find out they are both doing [Attribute]+[3W] damage, it kinda kills the mood.
There are vanishingly few Wizard powers with the Weapon keyword (maybe it's still technically none - the WotST weapon powers being PP powers, afterall), and I'm sure none that simply do 3[W] damage.
Balanced Classes - Is the low-level fighter totally equal with the low-level wizard? Is the high-level fighter totally equal with the high-level wizard? No, but the gap between them has been shortened considerably, so the low-level wizards and high-level fighters no longer feel like useless tools in their respective campaigns.
Well, less imbalanced classes, I guess. If having classes not quite as badly imbalanced as 3.5 is a plus for Pathfinder, how is having robustly balanced classes not a plus for 4e?
The time I looked at PF it looked like they tweaked a couple spells and said done.. so I am completely baffled by any claim the classes in it are balanced. Somebody just claimed the sky was made of swiss cheese...
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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 2:42PM
#22
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I'll not weigh in on this subject too heavily, mostly because I blame Monte Cook for everything I hated about 3.x and his reek is all over Pathfinder.
Why?
The elegant answer to this question would be to link the interview he did around 3.5's release on gamingreport.com...but I can no longer find the interview because the site is now defunct.
Since there is no more hard evidence to back up my claims, I am forced to withdraw my statement.
Moderated by
ORC_Ertai
on Nov 19, 2010 - 07:45AM
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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 2:42PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2008
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The time I looked at PF it looked like they tweaked a couple spells and said done.. so I am completely baffled by any claim the classes in it are balanced. Somebody just claimed the sky was made of swiss cheese...
Lets leave it at more balanced...
Cubic Wuzards and Squared Figthers?
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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 2:53PM
#24
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2003
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I'll not weigh in on this subject too heavily, mostly because I blame Monte Cook for everything I hated about 3.x and his reek is all over Pathfinder.
Why?
The elegant answer to this question would be to link the interview he did around 3.x's release on gamingreport.com...but I can no longer find the interview because the site is now defunct.
Since there is no more hard evidence to back up my claims, I am forced to withdraw my statement.
I'm not sure, but I think you're referring to the interview where he explained that he purposely included bad choices in the game to reward game mastery.
The honeymoon was over for me on that day also.
That kind of stuff is fine in competitive games, but in an rpg? No. Bad design. You can see it in certain places more readily that others.
Moderated by
ORC_Ertai
on Nov 19, 2010 - 07:46AM
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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 3:13PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 3:18PM
#26
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I'm not sure, but I think you're referring to the interview where he explained that he purposely included bad choices in the game to reward game mastery.
The honeymoon was over for me on that day also.
That kind of stuff is fine in competitive games, but in an rpg? No. Bad design. You can see it in certain places more readily that others.
Pretty much...
"Hey here's an idea...let's build booby traps into the rules to create an even more exclusionary culture around D&D than the one which already exists...that way self-infatuated aspie hermits whose idea of a fun Saturday night is reading books on tax law can have the illusion of accomplishment. Afterall, why would we want to make newer and more casual gamers feel welcome??? Now quit bogarting that crack pipe!"
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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 3:36PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2008
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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 3:48PM
#28
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No one's mentioned my favorit part of 4e.
Seperation of church and state fluff and mechanics.
While it may be small to some people, discribing a magic missile as a beam of green light instead of blue orb really makes the characters mine, and really helps roleplaying (in this case, roleplaying green lantern), and opens up the game to for me to be far more creative then 3.5 ever allowed.
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 4:07PM
#29
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No one's mentioned my favorit part of 4e.
Seperation of church and state fluff and mechanics.
While it may be small to some people, discribing a magic missile as a beam of green light instead of blue orb really makes the characters mine, and really helps roleplaying (in this case, roleplaying green lantern), and opens up the game to for me to be far more creative then 3.5 ever allowed.
In 3.x you needed an entire feat to do that (Spell Thematics).
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3 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2010 - 4:07PM
#30
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Because I am in an extreme minority on the WotC boards (a Pathfinder subscriber and supporter), I figure I better add more to my previous posts before this thread starts to stray into the '4E Rulez!' arena.
4th Edition Pros
- Easier to learn - I have to agree, 4th Edition is much easier to learn than its predecessors. New players can easily jump into a game and figure out what's going on and how to play their character.
- Streamlined builds - Having straitforward classes with limited "branches" in paragon and epic tiers and also reducing the reliance on feats/skills to make a character better is definitely a plus.
- GM Friendly - Gods, yes! It is incredibly easy to GM 4th edition since you no longer have to "build" monsters to meet the needs of the adventures.
4th Edition Cons
- Streamlined Builds - After a while, the easy to build characters simply become challenges to min/max or optimize for the best DPS in order to "win" the challenges easily
- Healing Surges - Or, "How to keep the DM from killing my character." Okay, it's not quite that bad. But still, 3.5 had potions and asked you to take a standard action to drink one and it provoked an attack of opportunity. Meaning you couldn't attack while drinking it and if you did so while something threatened you, they got a free hit.
- Fraternal Twins - One of the biggest complaints I have for 4th Edition, as do a good portion of gamers, is that the classes are too much like each other. Yes, the Wizard and Fighter are very different in style and definition, but when you look at a Wizard power and Fighter power, remove all the "fluff" and find out they are both doing [Attribute]+[3W] damage, it kinda kills the mood.
Pathfinder Pros
- Fan Approved - Before they went to production, they started off with an Alpha Playtest, then a year-long Beta Playtest where they asked for input by the fans on what changes they should make to the system to make it better. And they continue doing that with new products.
- Backwards Compatible - All the previously published material for 3.0/3.5/OGL products can be brought over to Pathfinder with minor modifications in most cases. Meaning there's a dearth of books out there that can be brought in if you want.
- Balanced Classes - Is the low-level fighter totally equal with the low-level wizard? Is the high-level fighter totally equal with the high-level wizard? No, but the gap between them has been shortened considerably, so the low-level wizards and high-level fighters no longer feel like useless tools in their respective campaigns.
Pathfinder Cons
- Backwards Compatible - Yes, one of the same things that makes it great also leaves it open to some disastrous stuff. By the end of WotC's 3.5 run, the system had bloated to 175 base classes, 782 prestige classes and 3,304 feats. These have all been inherited by Pathfinder for possible use.
- Backwards Compatible 2 - The other problem with compatibility is that it requires modification to bring the old into the new. Which means trying to figure out mechanics an use for your favorite prestige class and the knowledge that it's totally unofficial outside your own home group.
- Heavy Learning Curve - Like previous editions, you can sit someone down and teach them the basics of the game in a single sitting. However, that's covering just the basics and to really get the meat off the bones, you'll be learning the rules for at least a few months of weekly games. This has led many a gamer to stop playing because "it feels like homework".
I do have to ask how is class inbalance in PF a pro. it's better but not where it shuold be.
Healing surges is a PRO not a CON. Yes it's different but different is not bad. I think this is one of the biggest postive jumps for 4th.
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