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Apr 9, 2012 -- 7:30PM, Landro wrote:

Apr 9, 2012 -- 7:13PM, alien270 wrote:

Vermin Lord added.

Thanks for that Alien270.

Just a quick note about the level 20 Daily.... I think you may have underestimated it a little. As I understand it, it's a polymorph power, but not one that is related to wildshape. That means you can use your regular implement powers without having to shift out of it, which mean if you're not heavily invested in using wildshape you can gain the benefit from it an entire encounter.

Aside from rendering you immune to a great deal of forced movement (which is pretty situational), it lets you use the secondary attack at-will. That gives you an at-will attack every round that hits automatically on one or two monsters in melee, and inflicts ongoing 20 damage (save ends). That can add up to a lot of damage over the course of an encounter, and has very good action economy if other party members are stacking save penelties on them or the dice fall in your favour for a few turns.   

For a Druid that does use Wild Shape, non-WS polymorph powers are a real hassle since you can't have more than one active polymorph effect at a time.  Druids that don't regularly utilize Wild Shape are either non-optimal or (more rarely) corner cases.  So the fact that it's a separate polymorph power already docks some points from the PP for general Druid usage.

Even if the secondary attack is at-will, there are a few things to keep in mind:

1. At-wills aren't used as frequently in upper Paragon because at this point you have 4 encounter powers and 4 daily powers, and since most combats last 4-5 rounds that's just not much time to dedicate to at-wills (even in mop-up).
2. The fact that there's no initial damage roll really hurts, because the 20 guaranteed damage isn't much (my 7th level Druid dishes out more than that with a Grasping Claws attack, assuming CA).
3. Requiring allies to have save debuffers is actually inefficient, because if they've invested in them they'll want to use them with their own powers most likely (and Druids don't have access to as many as Invokers or Wizards).  Besides, save debuffers are better reserved for things like stun and dominate, not ongoing damage (the exception being bleeder builds, which a controller isn't).
4. A daily that does good damage wouldn't be rated all that high if all it did was damage, because a controller's dailies need to be encounter-wrecking; even a summon will probably out-DPR this daily through Instinctive Actions, while at the same time dishing out minor status effects and acting as a damage sponge (which both reduces the need for the limited resource that is in-combat healing, and provides surge efficiency to boot). 

This is why that PP's daily is by far its weakest feature.

Apr 9, 2012 -- 8:18PM, alien270 wrote:

For a Druid that does use Wild Shape, non-WS polymorph powers are a real hassle since you can't have more than one active polymorph effect at a time.  Druids that don't regularly utilize Wild Shape are either non-optimal or (more rarely) corner cases.  So the fact that it's a separate polymorph power already docks some points from the PP for general Druid usage.

Even if the secondary attack is at-will, there are a few things to keep in mind:

1. At-wills aren't used as frequently in upper Paragon because at this point you have 4 encounter powers and 4 daily powers, and since most combats last 4-5 rounds that's just not much time to dedicate to at-wills (even in mop-up).
2. The fact that there's no initial damage roll really hurts, because the 20 guaranteed damage isn't much (my 7th level Druid dishes out more than that with a Grasping Claws attack, assuming CA).
3. Requiring allies to have save debuffers is actually inefficient, because if they've invested in them they'll want to use them with their own powers most likely (and Druids don't have access to as many as Invokers or Wizards).  Besides, save debuffers are better reserved for things like stun and dominate, not ongoing damage (the exception being bleeder builds, which a controller isn't).
4. A daily that does good damage wouldn't be rated all that high if all it did was damage, because a controller's dailies need to be encounter-wrecking; even a summon will probably out-DPR this daily through Instinctive Actions, while at the same time dishing out minor status effects and acting as a damage sponge (which both reduces the need for the limited resource that is in-combat healing, and provides surge efficiency to boot). 

This is why that PP's daily is by far its weakest feature.

Fair enough!

Dust Eddy only blinds enemies that end their tunrs adjacent you and only until the end of YOUR next turn, which means it will only blind those who act after you and the blind will only be useful if you want to leave the square without provoking OAs, get CA or screw their imms for your next turn, since when your next turn ends they will be normal again.

That said, it is still a good power, but not technically as good as a blinding attack power.

Also I could not recommend more for beastshape druids to hybrid cleric. Battle healer's lore sovles almost every deficiency the wildshape feature has and being a human or half elf basically means you still get good at wills. In fact clerics at some levels might have more useful controlling powers, such as font of tears as early as lv 1. Besides using hammer as an implement and mc fighter you can easily daze with overwhelming impact at epic.

And if I remember correctly there are feats that allow you to add your con to the enemies attack penalties when you daze them, with a mace (which could be an implement with divine class). There is already an invoker version for that and considering how many dazing power the druid|clerics would  have there is no reason not to make a hybrid druidic one.

Accurate Ironscar rod would work well with this build (both +1 to implement ab and works as a mace).

Apr 10, 2012 -- 12:27AM, Alandmj wrote:

Dust Eddy only blinds enemies that end their tunrs adjacent you and only until the end of YOUR next turn, which means it will only blind those who act after you and the blind will only be useful if you want to leave the square without provoking OAs, get CA or screw their imms for your next turn, since when your next turn ends they will be normal again.

That said, it is still a good power, but not technically as good as a blinding attack power.

Awww nuts, I definitely missed that.  I'll have to think about how I want to rate that power again.

Apr 10, 2012 -- 12:27AM, Alandmj wrote:

Also I could not recommend more for beastshape druids to hybrid cleric. Battle healer's lore sovles almost every deficiency the wildshape feature has and being a human or half elf basically means you still get good at wills. In fact clerics at some levels might have more useful controlling powers, such as font of tears as early as lv 1. Besides using hammer as an implement and mc fighter you can easily daze with overwhelming impact at epic.

And if I remember correctly there are feats that allow you to add your con to the enemies attack penalties when you daze them, with a mace (which could be an implement with divine class). There is already an invoker version for that and considering how many dazing power the druid|clerics would  have there is no reason not to make a hybrid druidic one.

Accurate Ironscar rod would work well with this build (both +1 to implement ab and works as a mace).

True, this is a powerful option assuming BCL isn't errata'd out for hybrids.  I've heard that a few people houseruled that it doesn't work because it violates the hybrid class assumption that you only get the best armor that both classes are proficient in (and fwiw, if one of my players tried it I'd probably go with the same houserule).  Personally I expect it to become official errata, and I'll be happy when it does because I dislike the idea of choosing a hybrid just to cherry pick a proficiency (disguised as a class feature); reeks too much of 3E-style MCing for me. 

That said, yes it's currently RAW so I will add it to my hybrid section some time in the near future.

Another update! 

• BCL hybrid added, and the hybrid section was cleaned up a little in general with headings.
• Dust Eddy was downgraded to dark blue
• The Primal Attunement Air Spirit gets a conditional sky blue rating (see below)
• Tome Expertise added to the feats section (as sky blue, see below)
• Added the "Easy Ranged CA" combo to the combos section.  This is based on the fact that Tome Expertise causes enemies adjacent to your conjurations and summons to grant CA.  The biggest application (IMO) is that it makes Grasping Tide more accurate, since it's normally not that easy to get CA for that power (at least not in Heroic).

Something I noticed about Leaf Wall that may come off as slightly confusing:

"Enemies that enter the wall's space or start their turn there grant CA until the end of their next turn.  Use forced movement to cause as many enemies as possible to grant CA by moving them through the wall." 

This is completely unnecessary: enemies grant combat advantage while within the wall or adjacent to it. They do not need to move through the wall to have this activate.

Apr 14, 2012 -- 6:47PM, DuelistDelSol wrote:

Something I noticed about Leaf Wall that may come off as slightly confusing:

"Enemies that enter the wall's space or start their turn there grant CA until the end of their next turn.  Use forced movement to cause as many enemies as possible to grant CA by moving them through the wall." 

This is completely unnecessary: enemies grant combat advantage while within the wall or adjacent to it. They do not need to move through the wall to have this activate.

I think I meant to type "to" the wall; good catch.

Couple of Suggestions, alterations to your item guide...

Diamond Cincture allows you to spend a healing surge, not recover as though you had (I think that may have been the original text, but it is not the current). Suggested change to dark blue.

Add Elven Chain Shirt to Wondrous (suggested Sky Blue), with caveat that it confers an item bonus to AC, thus does not stack with Boots of the Fencing Master, Amulet of Elusive Prey, etc...

Add Ring of Giants (Dark), Ring of Fury (Sky Blue for melee Preds, less, maybe black for others), and War Ring (maybe only black, crit fishing is not a common tactic for druids) to Rings list.


Love the Guide, esp your detailed discussion of various tactics and combos, thanks. Wish options for synergistic Paragon Paths available through MC'ing were discussed, but admittedly that may be a lot of material to cover.

For your Predator Polearm Build, at lvl 19 you have : Druid daily 19: Summon Crocodile (replaces Summon Crocodile), but you take the power at lvl 9 already,   
so I was wondering what ability you meant to take and replace at that lvl because you also replace Summon Crocodile at lvl 25 as well with Primal Storm.  

Apr 24, 2012 -- 8:22PM, Heartlessone wrote:

For your Predator Polearm Build, at lvl 19 you have : Druid daily 19: Summon Crocodile (replaces Summon Crocodile), but you take the power at lvl 9 already,   
so I was wondering what ability you meant to take and replace at that lvl because you also replace Summon Crocodile at lvl 25 as well with Primal Storm.  

He replaced Summon Crocodile with Summon Crocodile. It isn't an accident.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 12:18AM, Alcestis wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 8:22PM, Heartlessone wrote:

For your Predator Polearm Build, at lvl 19 you have : Druid daily 19: Summon Crocodile (replaces Summon Crocodile), but you take the power at lvl 9 already,   
so I was wondering what ability you meant to take and replace at that lvl because you also replace Summon Crocodile at lvl 25 as well with Primal Storm.  

He replaced Summon Crocodile with Summon Crocodile. It isn't an accident.

So he replaced it so he didn't have to take a lvl 19 daily power, if I'm to understand this correctly?

Apr 25, 2012 -- 3:01AM, Heartlessone wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 12:18AM, Alcestis wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 8:22PM, Heartlessone wrote:

For your Predator Polearm Build, at lvl 19 you have : Druid daily 19: Summon Crocodile (replaces Summon Crocodile), but you take the power at lvl 9 already,   
so I was wondering what ability you meant to take and replace at that lvl because you also replace Summon Crocodile at lvl 25 as well with Primal Storm.  

He replaced Summon Crocodile with Summon Crocodile. It isn't an accident.

So he replaced it so he didn't have to take a lvl 19 daily power, if I'm to understand this correctly?

Well you never have to take a new power at all. He replaced it because otherwise the CB keeps defaulting to the level 19 slot and saying "replace me!" It isn't a rules thing, it is a technical thing with the CB.

It never occurred to me to replace a power with itself to make it shut up. Learn something new (and in this case, useful even) every day.

Apr 15, 2012 -- 11:58AM, Feralspirit wrote:

Add Elven Chain Shirt to Wondrous (suggested Sky Blue), with caveat that it confers an item bonus to AC, thus does not stack with Boots of the Fencing Master, Amulet of Elusive Prey, etc...

You also can't use Wonderous Items while Wild Shaped.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 11:30AM, Alcestis wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 3:01AM, Heartlessone wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 12:18AM, Alcestis wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 8:22PM, Heartlessone wrote:

For your Predator Polearm Build, at lvl 19 you have : Druid daily 19: Summon Crocodile (replaces Summon Crocodile), but you take the power at lvl 9 already,   
so I was wondering what ability you meant to take and replace at that lvl because you also replace Summon Crocodile at lvl 25 as well with Primal Storm.  

He replaced Summon Crocodile with Summon Crocodile. It isn't an accident.

So he replaced it so he didn't have to take a lvl 19 daily power, if I'm to understand this correctly?

Well you never have to take a new power at all. He replaced it because otherwise the CB keeps defaulting to the level 19 slot and saying "replace me!" It isn't a rules thing, it is a technical thing with the CB.

Ah, I don't use CB, but thx for the clearification.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 1:09PM, Todd wrote:

Apr 15, 2012 -- 11:58AM, Feralspirit wrote:

Add Elven Chain Shirt to Wondrous (suggested Sky Blue), with caveat that it confers an item bonus to AC, thus does not stack with Boots of the Fencing Master, Amulet of Elusive Prey, etc...

You also can't use Wonderous Items while Wild Shaped.

Wild Shape, Last Paragragh:

 You can use the properties and the powers of implements as well as magic items that you wear, but not the properties or the powers of weapons or the powers of wondrous items. While equipment is part of your beast form, it cannot be removed, and anything in a container that is part of your beast form is inaccessible.

Elven Chain Shirt confers Item Bonus to AC as a property, not a power. (If you wear light armor, don't leave home without one.)

(but you did make me nervous...)

Apr 25, 2012 -- 8:12PM, Feralspirit wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 1:09PM, Todd wrote:

Apr 15, 2012 -- 11:58AM, Feralspirit wrote:

Add Elven Chain Shirt to Wondrous (suggested Sky Blue), with caveat that it confers an item bonus to AC, thus does not stack with Boots of the Fencing Master, Amulet of Elusive Prey, etc...

You also can't use Wonderous Items while Wild Shaped.

Wild Shape, Last Paragragh:

 You can use the properties and the powers of implements as well as magic items that you wear, but not the properties or the powers of weapons or the powers of wondrous items. While equipment is part of your beast form, it cannot be removed, and anything in a container that is part of your beast form is inaccessible.

Elven Chain Shirt confers Item Bonus to AC as a property, not a power. (If you wear light armor, don't leave home without one.)

(but you did make me nervous...)

It says [...]or the powers of wondrous item[...]. So i can benefit from properties of wondrous items while in beast form?

Apr 27, 2012 -- 3:18AM, crayne wrote:

It says [...]or the powers of wondrous item[...]. So i can benefit from properties of wondrous items while in beast form?

That's my understanding, yes, but Alcestis is my authoritative rules source. If the issue is in doubt, visit Rules Questions forum, Ask a simple question thread... I'm fairly certain the rules experts which take the time to answer those questions will agree with me.

Yes, you can still use the properties of your Wondrous Items in Beast Form.  It only limits the use of powers.

With the new were-themes, it appears that with all of them you can use beast powers and no beast powers in hybrid form at 10th level

While in hybrid form, your equipment does not become part of your new form, and you are not forced to drop any items you are holding. You are also not limited to using implement and weapon attack powers that have the beast form keyword.

 

however you are officially in Beast Form, so Claw gloves etc. but you don't have wildshape unless you have it else where.

food for thought?
 

Sup Alien and Others,

It has been some time since I have been on the boards.  We have taken on a DM rotation on my group and recently rand a Dwarven Hold Dungeon that was infested by Spiders, pets of the Drow.  =)

Anyway,

The reasons for my post is that I am queued up to be playing my druid in the next two adventures and we are now level 14.  I am looking for build critique and character thoughts on my optimization.  But also to note what i have done and my thoughts on this characters optimization.

Currently running a Predator Druid, Drow, Iron Wolf Tribe Theme,(background: Stealth),  Formless Predator. 

Because of my group makeup we do not have a rogue, or really any other character to fill that role so early on I took on the role of sneaker.  Thanks to this guide i found a small new variation on existing builds.

My main item of choice is the Staff of the Traveler.  I have 8 speed with paragon wolf feat in beast, multiple options to shift and at 16 im getting the feat to do my dex.  What I have found is two things in the build.  My control is much easier to apply because my spead becomes many times unhindered by terrain do to shifting and teleporting with total speed increase.  Once i get to an artillery in the back i can easily lock it down with options Grasping Claw and World Serpents Grasp.
 
On side note I have MC Feat Binding Initiate(gain warlock skill: Thievery or others, proficiency with rods and wands, Choose a binder pact boon(star) gain 1st at will attack and utility powers as encounters, Hidden Lore(invis if you kill an enemy or an enemy adjacent to you drops) and Mind of Shadows(range 10 one creature, cha vs will 1d10 +cha, until end of next turn the target cannot see any of your allies who are 3 or more squares away, this is crappy but who knows))

Returning to my thoughts on the Staff of the Traveler.  I have combined this with Great Cat Armor, Eladrin Ring of Passage.  Now everytime I wild shape or even do a regular shift im moving 3 squares, this increases with other stuff later on, like Long Step or Sandals of Avandra.  Prior to that nice item i am getting Phantom Chaussures. 

Basically my goal with this is that I can bypass enemy lines to get opportune control with melee predator build.  Thoughts? Ideas? Please Critique.

Thanks

Hmm. Making an entirely rat-themed Druid(Level 15,Rat-based powers, Vermin Lord PP, Wererat theme, the works) and torn between ym level 6 utility choice. I currently have Rodent's Agility, which is nice, but Wererat has the Rat Scuttle and looking at it, I'm considering a shift 2 might be better than a no-OA Move 5 1/enc. Though I have the Quick WIld SHape+Agile Form ability, so shifting away shou;dn't usually be a problem).

I would suggest the rat scuttle and see if you can grab the pitted flowstone.  Shift through an opponent and do a little damage.

Hi All,

I am posting here in the hopes of getting some expert help in putting together a Protector Druid (HotF) build. I am very new to 4e and was invited, recently, to join a 4e game. I have attempted to read as much as possible (including guides/wiki/handbooks) in the hopes of being able to put together a solid character. As of yet I am unsure what I will be playing so I have been putting together random builds that fit each role. I have attempted to choose my powers and feats, however. I am having a great deal of difficulty making choices which I feel are appropriate to what I want to accomplish; which is controller primary and striker a far second. The following is my build so far:

Race:elf
Druid: protector, circle of shelter (primal predator)
Theme: fey beast tamer (fey panther)

Feats
1 - beastwalker circle
2 - staff expertise
4 - strong-willed summons
6 - superior implement training[accurate staff]
8 -
10 -

Powers
Encounter 1 - Thorn Spray
At Will 1 - Savage Rend
At Will 1 - Grasping Tide
At Will 1 - Magic Stones
Daily 1 - Summon Natural Ally
Utility 2 - Barkskin or Warding Wind or Seed of Healing
Encounter 3 - Wind Wall or Quills or Predator's Flurry
Daily 5 - Summon Natural Ally
Utility 6 - Leaf Wall or Camouflage Cloak
Encounter 7 - Charm Beast
Daily 9 - Summon Natural Ally
Utility 10 - Armor of the Wild or Clear the Chaff or Feywild Sojourn

As you can see I still require a few feats as well as ironing out my actual power selection. I would appreciate any and all comments pertaining to my build and other possible routes.

I was thinking about trying to use the "Savage Rend Action Denial" as it grants excellent BFC, however. This would require a few different feats. As such I was wondering if anybody has played using this trick and if so was it worth it? Optionally, there's also the "Easy Ranged Combat Advantage" trick which I like a great deal as well because of the summons I have as well as my nature's growth ability.

Just in case, all books are allowed with DM approval.

All thoughts/comments/suggestions are weclome.

Cheers
Kor

Got a question about Wild Shape. The power says: "You can use the properties and the powers of implements as well as magic items that you wear, but not the properties or the powers of weapons or the powers of wondrous items."

If you can use a weapon as an implement (Swordmage for example), can you use the properties of the weapliment or not? 

Also OP, would you take a look at the third build in this post? The Beastblade is a Half-elf Bladesinger that multiclasses Druid so it can use Savage Rend as its Dilettante power and take a Druid paragon path. The basic routine is SR -> slide 1 + prone, but I have a feeling there's more you can do with it. Unfortunately I'm not at all familiar with Druids, so I was wondering if you could help me out? Thanks!

Aug 28, 2012 -- 4:17AM, svendj wrote:

Got a question about Wild Shape. The power says: "You can use the properties and the powers of implements as well as magic items that you wear, but not the properties or the powers of weapons or the powers of wondrous items."

If you can use a weapon as an implement (Swordmage for example), can you use the properties of the weapliment or not?

If the item in question is an implement to you (such as light and heavy blades for swordmages or daggers for sorcerers) you can use the weapliment properties while wild-shaped. Druid Beast Form powers are 'implement-only', so you would not normally be able to benefit from magical weapon properties or powers while wildshaped unless it was a valid implement for you.

So Druid MC Swordmage could go nuts with Frostcheese in beast form then?

Aug 28, 2012 -- 4:12PM, svendj wrote:

So Druid MC Swordmage could go nuts with Frostcheese in beast form then?

Yep.

Aug 28, 2012 -- 4:12PM, svendj wrote:

So Druid MC Swordmage could go nuts with Frostcheese in beast form then?

No need for MC swordmage. You can just grab a frost quarterstaff and go "nuts". However, a druid reaps quite small benefits from frost cheese. You are probably better of with a staff of ruin or even a staff of the serpent if you are looking to improve your damage output.

Oh, it's actually not even for a Druid. I just used MC Swordmage as an easy example.

I wanted to know if a Half-elf Bladesinger MC Druid with Wild Shape and Savage Rend could use a Frost weapon to make SR deal cold damage. And it appears he can. Thanks.

Forgive me if this has been addressed, but I haven't read through all 89 pages.

If the AC issue is fixed in some manner, how does the Swarm Druid stack up? Let's say you houserule in an unnerfed version of Hide Armor Expertise or whatever. The exact source of your AC isn't important. Let's just assume for a moment that you get it up to par without an exorbitant investment. If this is the case, how does Primal Swarm fare against the other builds?

Poorly. The DR sinks to proportionally nothing, and their build-favored power list is no more effective than the generic picks.

Nov 11, 2010 -- 8:20PM, alien270 wrote:

Fire Hawk (PrP):  Thanks to this FAQ entry the ambiguity surrounding this power has been officially dispelled.  It works like most of us thought it did, essentially granting "threatening reach" 10 against the target (well, technically you get to make a ranged 10 OA, but the effect is the same).  Devastating against artillery, and useful against enemies that want to move.  Stack on implement damage bonuses and this can be a real powerhouse.

What useful actions could an enemy take without incurring that second attack?  If they stayed put & attacked one of my adjacent allies with a melee weapon?  That's all I can think of, but even that seems iffy because under the Fighter's Mark rule, it would provoke an OA...and Fire Hawk says "Trigger: The target takes any action that can provoke opportunity attacks."

Um. If a Fighter has a creature marked and it is adjacent to the Fighter, the creature provokes an Immediate Interrupt that is an MBA. That is in no way an OA.

The correct question is what does provoke the OA. Moving that isn't shifting and ranged attacks. Anything else does not cause the secondary attack. With the caveat that many, many, creatures have "attack and move, this movement doesn't provoke OAs" powers.

Or, for that matter, melee or close attacks, any form of long-distance shifting so it can get into range/reach for them (the shifting itself isn't helpful per se, because Fire Hawk follows the target...).

 I just noticed there weren't any racial feats listed for pixies - Streak of Light should probably be mentioned... CA on every charge is at least black for a Predator.

Regarding the purple rating for the L2 utility power, 'All-Encompassing Nature', have you factored in its use for Ritual Casting?

The vast majority of useful rituals are keyed off either Arcana or Religion, and this utility allows the druid to use their Nature skill for those checks. In particular the Elf/Alfsair Spear/Polearm Momentum build would make great use of it, with a higher "arcana" check than most Wizards.

Ritual casting is rarely useful, and most of the best ones don't need you to make checks.

I guess that's campaign dependant, my campaigns normally involve a fair bit of investigation, where divination/scrying rituals are invaluable. And they normally require checks to determine how well they succeed (number of questions you can ask an oracle, number of images you see, etc).

Saying you love investigation campaigns so you use scrying is like saying you love jogging so much that you ride your motorcycle everywhere.

Psh, hardly. All scrying rituals have limits, and I design campaigns around those limits. Currently my players are hunting lost artifacts that have been guarded and protected by an ancient order of liches, who have set up all sorts of protections to make the artifacts "impossible" to find.

Forbiddance. Conceal Object. Sentinel Eyes. Hallucinatory terrain. And so on.

The players figured out a clever use of Consult Oracle. The Oracle ostensibly can see everything... except the artifacts are within Forbiddance zones. So the players asked the Oracles for the locations they could not see.

That provided general regions to refine the search. Object Reading rituals were used on things found leftover from ancient times when the order of liches were still human, providing clues as to how they went about concealing the artifacts.

And of course, the answers the Oracles provided were very cryptic (as per the ritual description).

"Seek ye the joyous ravens, as canvas meets steel on a field of blood."

And such.

Here's the rub though - if your party sucked at rituals and only rolled high enough for one clue, you would have given them enough in that clue to keep the story going.  That's what you do as the DM; it's your job.  So getting more questions might make things slightly easier, but it's really not necessary.

Players shouldn't have to expend lots of resources on what boils down to plot advancement, because the DM is going to do his best to make that happen anyway.  You want the players to experience your story.  So they might as well save feats, powers, and the like for combat use.  At least, that's the way to look at it from a CharOp persepctive.

I'm not saying rituals are useless, I'm just saying they're not really within the scope of CharOp because they differ vastly in worth from campaign to campaign and DM to DM.  We don't rate things like the Linguist feat for the same reason.  I'm glad you and your group find rituals fun though.  Whenever I give rituals to my group they completely ignore them.

Valid point, and well put.

So if I were to be interested in a swarm druid for a low-heroic few-shot, what's a good stat distribution and how do I deal with the AC issue?  I realize that there's scaling problems, but it's low heroic.  If I go with like an 18/18/13  wis/con/dex, then I end up with a somewhat unstellar 14 AC at first level.  Do I just suck it up, and hope that the DR wins out?  I can't even switch the dex to str and pick up Chain due to the way swarm druids work.

Well, the easiest solution is to MC Cleric for Battle Cleric's Lore and replace the DR with plate+ AC.

But if I didn't want the DR I'd just go Guardian and save a lot of trouble.

"don't do swarm" isn't an acceptable answer.

Then I guess you'll just have to suck it up like the sorcs do. Or you could MC Cleric for only the +2 shield bonus.

Hide Armor Expertise may have been horribly nerfed, but in a low-Heroic one-shot, it's not the worst option you could take. As erachima said, take BCL first for the +2 shield bonus, but if your AC is still lacking, HAE is worth a point or two.

so whats the plus to hiton my summon pack wolf I'm lvl 11 wis mod +6  and using a +3 aversion accurite staff i think the feat superior impliment training should add to that too?

Wisdom + half level + implement + Impliment training

6+5+3+2

Your help is apriceated
 

Oct 17, 2012 -- 12:26AM, MrVNDL wrote:

so whats the plus to hiton my summon pack wolf I'm lvl 11 wis mod +6  and using a +3 aversion accurite staff i think the feat superior impliment training should add to that too?

Wisdom + half level + implement + Impliment training

6+5+3+2

Your help is apriceated
 

What is your to hit? That is your Summons to hit. Done.

Oct 5, 2012 -- 6:57AM, Mand12 wrote:

But if I didn't want the DR I'd just go Guardian and save a lot of trouble.

"don't do swarm" isn't an acceptable answer.

You could Hybrid Runepriest, go Serene and not invest heavily in Str. With a Con/Wis race, go 14 Str, 16 Con, 13 Dex, 8 Int, 18 Wis, 10 Cha and always raise Con/Wis. That'll give you a start AC of 17 in Hide Armor + DR 3 in swarm form once you spend the hybrid talent feat. Plus you gain 4 temp hit points once per round if someone damages you with an attack.

Word of the Blinding Shield is an encounter 3 interrupt weapon that attacks Fort. Rune of the Undeniable Dawn is a close burst 3 that attacks AC. Rune of Mending is a good 'I need more damage right now'

Hybrid Runepriest will only work at higher levels AND with houserules granting three stat levelups.

Oct 17, 2012 -- 9:52AM, erachima wrote:

Hybrid Runepriest will only work at higher levels AND with houserules granting three stat levelups.

Or you can ignore Str and Runepriest attacks as much as possible - the encounter will eventually fix itself at 17th, but it isn't a huge deal that you're down one encounter from 3-16 given the boost in survivability.. I was targeting Heroic-only, but a 16 Con/20 Wis build who immediately gets the Druid option at 1st level has this:
Magic Stones as the go-to at-will
18 AC
3 DR vs melee/ranged
5 temp hit points when hit, once per round

Not as many options as a traditional Druid, but extraordinarily tough damage sponge - and it is putting out control every round, has an encounter healing option, and upping damage with that heal.

Alcestis, so the plus to hit on my attacks is 17 and i'm guessing the summonns is 16
 

What part of 'the summons' attacks are the same as yours' don't you get?

Oct 17, 2012 -- 12:33PM, MrVNDL wrote:

Alcestis, so the plus to hit on my attacks is 17 and i'm guessing the summonns is 16
 

You're close...
Read his post again.

Oct 17, 2012 -- 1:30PM, Scatterbrained wrote:

Oct 17, 2012 -- 12:33PM, MrVNDL wrote:

Alcestis, so the plus to hit on my attacks is 17 and i'm guessing the summonns is 16
 

You're close...
Read his post again.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades Not D&D

Question about Grasping Tide.  Played my Druid for the first time today and my DM claimed that an enemy that shifted out of Grasping Tide's area of effect did not allow me to make my secondary attack.

His reasoning was based on the wording of Grasping Tide: "if the target leaves the burst's area of effect, you can use an opportunity action to make a secondary attack against it"

He combined that with the wording on Shift from the Compendium: "No Opportunity Actions Triggered: Unless the description of an effect says otherwise, shifting doesn’t trigger opportunity actions such as opportunity attacks."

Thus since shift doesn't trigger an opportunity action, I can't use Grasping Tide's secondary attack.  

This logic (sadly) actually seems reasonable to me, but it seems different from what I'm reading in this class guide.  Did I misread the class guide, did we misread the rules or is something else going on here?

Thanks! 

Nov 4, 2012 -- 5:35PM, codeartist wrote:

Question about Grasping Tide.  Played my Druid for the first time today and my DM claimed that an enemy that shifted out of Grasping Tide's area of effect did not allow me to make my secondary attack.

His reasoning was based on the wording of Grasping Tide: "if the target leaves the burst's area of effect, you can use an opportunity action to make a secondary attack against it"

He combined that with the wording on Shift from the Compendium: "No Opportunity Actions Triggered: Unless the description of an effect says otherwise, shifting doesn’t trigger opportunity actions such as opportunity attacks."

Thus since shift doesn't trigger an opportunity action, I can't use Grasping Tide's secondary attack.  

This logic (sadly) actually seems reasonable to me, but it seems different from what I'm reading in this class guide.  Did I misread the class guide, did we misread the rules or is something else going on here?

Thanks! 

Specific overrides general.  In this case the power specifically says you can use an OA (where the A is action) to make a secondary attack.  Not anywhere in this example is an opportunity attack being made.

Wrong, it's not specific enough to override the Shift (or Teleportation, or Forced Movement) rules which prevent triggering of Opportunity Actions (not just Attacks) that are triggered off of movement.

1. Until the end of your next turn, if the target leaves the burst’s area of effect, you can use an opportunity action to make a secondary attack against it.

2. No Opportunity Actions Triggered: Unless the description of an effect says otherwise, shifting doesn’t trigger opportunity actions such as opportunity attacks.

That sounds like it says it does in the description of the effect to me.  Specifically.

I kind of feel Grasping Strike would have to be more specific than it is, like calling out shifting specifically.  But I'm surprised I haven't seen this debated before.

The effect does not mention shifting (or teleporting or forced movement), ergo it does not specifically overwrite those restrictions.

An example of how to do so would be:
"If the target leaves the burst's area of effect, even if it shifts, ..."

I'd be okay with letting it work as a house rule, though. 

Nov 4, 2012 -- 8:55PM, Jugulator007 wrote:

1. Until the end of your next turn, if the target leaves the burst’s area of effect, you can use an opportunity action to make a secondary attack against it.

2. No Opportunity Actions Triggered: Unless the description of an effect says otherwise, shifting doesn’t trigger opportunity actions such as opportunity attacks.

That sounds like it says it does in the description of the effect to me.  Specifically.

Do you understand what "says otherwise" means? And if you want precedent, go look at every other OA in the game, including the OA power itself: "An enemy that you can see either leaves a square adjacent to you or uses a ranged or an area power while adjacent to you." Welcome to "the general wording of all movement triggered OAs", it's not even remotely specific with regards to the General rules about Forced Movement, Teleportation, and Shifting.

And yes, this means Shaman Spirits aren't enabled by Forced Movement or Teleportation.

It seems like the trigger for Grasping Tide is more specific than the general movement-triggered OA that shifting allows you to avoid.  Does "says otherwise" really mean that the power has to list every exception?  Like it would have to say "Even if the target leaves the zone via shifting, teleportation, or forced movement."?

Yes, that is exactly what specific vs general means. You have to specifically override general rules.

"Until the end of your next turn, if the target leaves the burst's area of effect, you can use an opportunity action to make a secondary attack against it."  They're not provoking a movement-based Opportunity Attack that the shift definition specifically allows them to avoid.  They're fufilling a completely separate qualifier that allows you to make a secondary attack by consuming an Opportunity Action.  The shift itself doesn't trigger the secondary attack, the fact that you are outside of the zone afterwards does.

Nov 9, 2012 -- 12:33PM, Teabiscuit wrote:

"Until the end of your next turn, if the target leaves the burst's area of effect, you can use an opportunity action to make a secondary attack against it."  They're not provoking a movement-based Opportunity Attack that the shift definition specifically allows them to avoid.  They're fufilling a completely separate qualifier that allows you to make a secondary attack by consuming an Opportunity Action.  The shift itself doesn't trigger the secondary attack, the fact that you are outside of the zone afterwards does.

The rules say you're wrong

No Opportunity Actions Triggered: Unless the description of an effect says otherwise, shifting doesn’t trigger opportunity actions such as opportunity attacks. 

Re-read the last sentence of what I wrote.  Isn't the trigger of the secondary attack the fact that you are now out of the burst, not the shift itself?

You used a shift to trigger it. Just like being forced moved out of it wouldn't trigger it either.

Nov 9, 2012 -- 1:35PM, Teabiscuit wrote:

Re-read the last sentence of what I wrote.  Isn't the trigger of the secondary attack the fact that you are now out of the burst, not the shift itself?

The trigger is: "the target leaves the burst's area of effect" and "leaves a square to enter another" is the definition of moving

^ What he said. The wording in Grasping Tide is not unique or specific when you look at other uses of the same language in D&D rules.  It's the same kind of wording used pretty much everywhere in reference to moving.

Whats the opinion on the Were-animal Themes in conjunction with Druids?

Nov 11, 2012 -- 12:14PM, Genjin wrote:

Whats the opinion on the Were-animal Themes in conjunction with Druids?

Simply put, they are not that good for a druid, because you can arleady shapeshift natrually. Well, maybe for hybrid druids (so that they can use both Beast Form and weapon/implement powers), but it's not going to come in use often.

The main use of the WereX themes are to use Claw Gloves to add 1d10 to every attack you make with CA.

Nov 11, 2012 -- 12:14PM, Genjin wrote:

Whats the opinion on the Were-animal Themes in conjunction with Druids?

The other possibly useful thing is to stick them on some kind of defender so that they can use feat-boosted Grasping Strike for an immobilizing MBA or Rending Strike for it's slide (if for some reason Eldritch Strike isn't an option).  There are also some synergistic interactions between brawler grabs and the grab support druids get, but these are more fun tricks than truly optimal builds.

Nov 11, 2012 -- 12:14PM, Genjin wrote:

Whats the opinion on the Were-animal Themes in conjunction with Druids?

They work nicely for hybrid sentinels.

I have a rules question regarding Swarm Druids using Scattered Form. Scattered form makes you take half damage on melee and ranged attacks and Swarm druid "Reduces all damage you take form melee and ranged attacks by your consitution modifier".

Now according to the Rules Compendium,     "Some powers deal half damage when they miss, and some effects, such as  the weakened condition, cause damage to be halved. When a power or other  effect deals half damage, first apply all modifiers to the damage,  including resistances and vulnerabilities, and then divide the damage in  half (rounded down)."

None of my searches revealed anythign to clarify this, so I'm asking it here. When you take damage from an attack that does half damage on a miss or if you're in scattered form, how is the damage math done? I know that accordign to this, if the druid had damage resistance it would be Resistance, then halved... but it's not resistance, it's damage reduction, and there doesn't seem to be rules on it. The way it is worded in the swarm druid description leads me to think otherwise.

So how does it work?

Reduction is a modifier. Halving is always last.

A friend of mine is looking at making a Predator Druid with a focus on being as ridiculously mobile as possible. Aside from Long Step, what options exist to increase the shift you get when you come out of Beast Form? Or is Long Step pretty much it? Her MC is already spoken for (Monk, if that opens up anything, though I didn't notice anything especially interesting for this specific purpose).

Well the optimal answer is probably Staff of the Traveler + teleport boosters.

Dec 31, 2012 -- 10:50AM, Scatterbrained wrote:

Well the optimal answer is probably Staff of the Traveler + teleport boosters.

We considered that, but 1) another member of the party is already doing something similar (with Evermeet Warlock, no less), so we don't want to step on any toes, and 2) we're specifically optimizing shifts, since she wants to take Dispossessed Champion for her ED. Sure, the lack of a stat boost sucks, but the idea of a speed-opped (both init and movement) Druid going first, leaping something like 7-9 squares with Pouncing Form as a free action, and letting the whole party get into position in the process (screw you, turn 1 killbox!) is, simply put, damned compelling.

That said, I remembered an obvious shift boost: Mark of Passage. Wild Shape is a power, so MoP applies to its shift. MoP + Long Step = a 3-square shift on returning to humanoid form, and that's not shabby, even if it looks a little weak next to the 9-square shift into beast form she'd get with the same feat load and Pouncing Form.

Dec 31, 2012 -- 10:28AM, RayjeEliwan wrote:

Her MC is already spoken for (Monk, if that opens up anything, though I didn't notice anything especially interesting for this specific purpose).

Monastic Adept (MC monk) feat could get her an encounter minor action shift (Fallen Needle) if she's interested...

I only recall one feat, that increases the shift distance, which is "risky shift", but that requires MC rogue and you grant CA, after using it. But whenever you shift, it allows you to shift an additional square. I think There isn't much to shift opimization, teleport is the only way to go. There's two paragon paths (one for dragon born and one for wizard "arcane wayfarer) which grant a teleport speed at LV 16. So whenever a power allows you to move (including shift), you can use your teleport speed instead. Most teleport boosting items (like eladrin armor, ring and boots) add 1 to max distance, so they always get added, even if a power says "shift 1 square", like wild shape.

You should also advise your friend with the staff of the traveler to get an Orb of nimble thoughts, for an encouter teleport (int mod squares).

There are a couple of items that specifically help out with adding/increasing Beast Form shifts.

Apologies if this has been brought up (as I'm almost positive it has but I don't want to slog through 95 pages of conversation), but this has me a bit confused:

Ironbreaker's Claws (PrP):  An AoE that does decent damage, and if you hit and then switch to beast form before your turn ends, any enemy that hits or misses you takes 5 damage.  Disincentive for every enemy on the board (even ranged) to attack you is nice (especially for Predators who don't normally get these kinds of powers), but the damage doesn't scale.  Useless for Sentinels, who lack Wild Shape. 

The last line of that entry implies that Sentinels have a way to get other powers besides Combined Attack, and if they do I'm not familiar with it. Would anyone be able to enlighten me? 

My guess is Alien was editing powers, knew they get dailies, but mistyped. You are correct.

Actually both assumptions only partially correct.

1. Hybrid Sentinels can choose among all encounter powers of both classes, including combined attack (or additional uses on higher levels).

2. Sentinels can get wild shape, although it costs 2 feats, which have virtually no other benefit, except wild shape. Theres also the 3 were themes (wererat, werebear and werewolf), that allow you to use beastform powers, although they don't give you the wild shape power.
Call to the Wild: grants "Nature's ally" daily power.
Beastwalker Circle: Requires "Nature's ally". Gain Wildshape and may replace "Nature's ally" with normal druid daily power.

As a side thought, would an optimized shift (say shift +1 via risky shift) stack with an optimized teleport (say teleport +1 with eladrin chain) to grant a teleport 3 via Staff of the Traveler?

Jan 3, 2013 -- 9:06AM, Dzance wrote:

As a side thought, would an optimized shift (say shift +1 via risky shift) stack with an optimized teleport (say teleport +1 with eladrin chain) to grant a teleport 3 via Staff of the Traveler?

Generally speaking it depends on the wording of the related items/effects.

In this case you can shift 2 squares, so the staff replaces it with teleport. Eladrin items increase the max. distance of any teleport you make, so this is also ok.

May I ask; Why is Vital Form sky blue for dwarves and just blue for the rest of us?

Jan 24, 2013 -- 12:14AM, Kees wrote:

May I ask; Why is Vital Form sky blue for dwarves and just blue for the rest of us?

I imagine the rating was a relic of when Dwarves just got second wind as a minor, instead of having a minor action power that let them use second wind (multiple second winds for minor actions were possible). I believe they can still use it as an interrupt with the feat Resilience of Stone.

Ah yes, Resilience of Stone, it doesn't say that it changes the Encounter power minor action second wind. Did they forgot to update Resilience of Stone? Because in that case you have one hack of Dwarven Blightbeast machine.

Well, RoS doesn't really seem in need of an update to me... If you're finding ways to utilize multiple second winds per encounter, I don't think it's broken to invest a little more and make them interrupts (I'm sure there's a build that will prove me wrong). 

The Wereboar/Rat/Wolf themes give an interesting twist to the druid in the level 10 section of the themes.  Allowing the druid to gain a hybrid form that can carry implements and weapons. I am unsure if it has been discussed before or if it will be all that useful for the druid and not more useful for the hybrid druid.

    Discussed earlier in this thread. Were-themes are mostly more useful for non-druids and hybrids. The truly spiffy thing about the were themes is that they allow for the use of claw gloves on a lot of other classes' powers.
 As far as regular druids... Honestly, the value of the level 10 feature depends greatly on how often you'd normally be switching forms to utilize powers that you wouldn't have previously been able to use while wildshaped. If you spend the majority of your time in one form and don't have many powers that require you to be in the other then it's not particularly useful except to save you a bit of action economy - my pixie predacharger, for example, pops off his one AoE encounter power and then only changes forms for the free shifting to facilitate charging.
 Sentinels get a bit more mileage from the themes because it gives them more options for gaining a beast form.
 

The thing is that for most wild shape druids, shifting forms can be a great use of a minor action. Predators shift all over the place with wild shape, and I'm pretty sure swarms can get something out of it too (THP I think?).

Just realized this guide doesn't have Writhing Earth (level 9, came from DSH)

Has someone managed to build an, even remotely, optimized Druid hybrid using Werethemes, that actually profits, instead of only suffers, from being |Druid? I never tried, but Battlemind|Druid could work, but would be 99% carried by the Battlemind, i guess. Rogue|Druid could work, as well...I'm more interested in damage oriented hybridisation, but any controller build would be nice to see, as well.

There have been a few but most werethemes are to allow a half elf to poach a druid at will, and still use it, or to get access to claw gloves as a monk and make your flurry of blows broken.

There have been a few druid hybrid builds that used werethemes but I don't remember them all that clearly.  

Apr 18, 2013 -- 11:36AM, Koshinuke wrote:

... or to get access to claw gloves as a monk and make your flurry of blows broken.

If that is allowed at your table, Battlemind would profit much more from it.