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2 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2010 - 8:27PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Aug 23, 2010
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All previous 6 editions of GW did not have abstract ammo rules so this version of GW is quite different in that way. I've never heard of Spirit of the Century but d20 Modern, the closest version to the new GW/D&D 4e, did require one to keep track of ammo.
As some people point out the current abstract ammo rules discourage players from choosing guns over bows/crossbows b/c you can only shoot once per encounter or risk losing all your ammo. This seems inherently illogical. Guns are more lethal than bows/crossbows. That's why modern armies use them & not the more primitive weapons. There's something just strange to me that one has a gun but simply has no idea how much ammo one has for it. Or that any modern gun can only be fired once per encounter, that also seems bizarre. I'm not suggesting unlimited ammo or letting PCs find huge caches, but if ammo becomes a treasure in & of itself, then the hunt for ammo, esp. the right caliber, becomes an interesting part of the game and certainly would be part of any post-apocalypse setting. My experience has been that players did not find it hard to keep track of their own ammo nor did it consume a large amount of game time.
BTW, what's the logic or in-game rationale behind Omega Tech possibly being depleted after every use? Is it b/c Omega Tech is unreliable & that every usage might end up w/ the tech item malfunctioning?
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2 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2010 - 10:49PM
#42
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BTW, what's the logic or in-game rationale behind Omega Tech possibly being depleted after every use? Is it b/c Omega Tech is unreliable & that every usage might end up w/ the tech item malfunctioning?
There isn't an explanation offered for why, just that Omega Tech might "deplete it's charge." Strangely enough they do explain why they're rare-ish and why they can't just be bought.
That it is old and unreliable is one possibility, I suppose. Could be because the PCs are clumsy primatives and aren't using them properly. The text itself doesn't say though, at least in the core book. It explains how Omega Tech can be salvaged by "fixing" it, and that's totally independent of the player's mechanics skill. The intergration of the trading card component is pretty contrived, but whatever.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 5:18PM
#43
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Morbid, could you please stick to being constructive on these forums, and refrain from inserting your personal CCG baggage into every single thread you post in? Alternatively, there's a signature feature on this forum: you can just put all your damage there instead of filling every post with it manually. All previous 6 editions of GW did not have abstract ammo rules so this version of GW is quite different in that way. I've never heard of Spirit of the Century but d20 Modern, the closest version to the new GW/D&D 4e, did require one to keep track of ammo.
While that is absolutely true, the game itself is substantially abstracted, in a way that allows narrative freedom to prevail over mechanics that don't necessarily make sense (virtually all editions of D&D and its derivatives) - the designers merely recognized it and used it to their advantage to allow more cinematic gameplay. Neither method (abstraction vs. representational) is better or worse, they are simply different.
As some people point out the current abstract ammo rules discourage players from choosing guns over bows/crossbows b/c you can only shoot once per encounter or risk losing all your ammo. This seems inherently illogical. Guns are more lethal than bows/crossbows. That's why modern armies use them & not the more primitive weapons.
Note that guns are more lethal than their counterparts here as well, which is why their use is artificially limited by the mechanics. You are also only forced to choose between the two at character creation: normal ranged weapons can be fashioned from nearly anything, and most humanoid creatures carry a gun or gun-equivalent.
There's something just strange to me that one has a gun but simply has no idea how much ammo one has for it. Or that any modern gun can only be fired once per encounter, that also seems bizarre.
Bear in mind that those neither of those need to be the case. You're reading more into the mechanics than you need to. This is not a representational game, so there is a greater onus on the player to generate the appropriate narrative, but this is not a drawback. When the player has ammo, he has enough ammunition for his weapon not to fire once but to make one meaningful basic attack against an enemy during a roughly 30-second skirmish, and he may or may not know exactly how much that is. Given the ridiculously close ranges at which most D&D-style encounters occur, even a trained soldier might only get off one good, clean shot before being rushed by angry mutant badgers with flails. Said soldier can fire off as many shots as he wants, strictly speaking, so long as he knows he'll have expended the bulk of it when the encounter is over. You simply work that into the narrative without saying "hey my character has exactly 32 rounds of 5.56 ammo." Again, there's nothing wrong with that playstyle, it simply wasn't part of Gamma World's design goals.
I'm not suggesting unlimited ammo or letting PCs find huge caches, but if ammo becomes a treasure in & of itself, then the hunt for ammo, esp. the right caliber, becomes an interesting part of the game and certainly would be part of any post-apocalypse setting. My experience has been that players did not find it hard to keep track of their own ammo nor did it consume a large amount of game time.
I agree that ammo-hunting is very much a post-apocalyptic theme. One of the primary goals of D&D4 was a further abstraction of the mechanics (or, more accurately, an acceptance of the already abstract nature of the mechanics), and Gamma World, designed for ease of play and maximum allowance for cinematic gameplay and communal narrative construction, even moreso.
BTW, what's the logic or in-game rationale behind Omega Tech possibly being depleted after every use? Is it b/c Omega Tech is unreliable & that every usage might end up w/ the tech item malfunctioning?
That's essentially it, yes, but as previously noted, the entire game is built around the concept of narrative freedom (see also: unspecified origin and weapon fluff), so you're free (nay, encouraged) to explain it however you'd like.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2010 - 10:07PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Aug 23, 2010
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One (unintended?) result of the new GW abstract ammo rules is that it disadvantages PCs. PCs who have firearms & don't want to run out of ammo, can only use the firearm once per encounter. After that they have switch to a primitive ranged weapon or a melee weapon. If they use a gun more than once, whether they fire 2 shots or 200 shots, they are out of ammo after the encounter unless they later find more ammo.
NPCs are under less constraints. An NPC opponent will usually only appear once in the scenario. Therefore, an NPC doesn't have to worry about not having ammo later on in the adventure or in future adventures, as PCs do. An NPC w/ a gun shooting at the PCs might as well shoot as many times as he or she can b/c after this encounter, they will either be dead or the PC will be dead or the NPC will run away & probably never re-appear again. Since most NPC opponents appear only in one encounter, if they have a gun, they might as well shoot multiple times. PCs, however, not wanting to run out of ammo & conserving for future encounters/scenarios, will want to shoot no more than once per encounter. This gives NPCs w/ firearms a significant advantage over PCs.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2010 - 10:14PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Apr 17, 2008
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The ammo rules don't apply to NPCs/monsters -- and there are always differences between player stats and monster stats anyway in anything based on 4e D&D. Players and monsters aren't built the same way, and don't function the same way mechanically.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 18, 2010 - 5:50AM
#46
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Morbid, could you please stick to being constructive on these forums, and refrain from inserting your personal CCG baggage into every single thread you post in?
If you do not agree with me or if my perspective brings you down simply don't read my posts. That has to be more constructive than requesting I suspend my own views and match your enthusiasm.
The ammo rules don't apply to NPCs/monsters -- and there are always differences between player stats and monster stats anyway in anything based on 4e D&D. Players and monsters aren't built the same way, and don't function the same way mechanically.
There's that and monsters with ammo have a fairly good reason not to conserve ammo. It won't do them much good if they die.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 19, 2010 - 9:47PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2010
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An NPC w/ a gun shooting at the PCs might as well shoot as many times as he or she can b/c after this encounter, they will either be dead or the PC will be dead
Lets take a look at monsters with guns. Out of the first book, there is only ONE monsters that has an at-will gun attack. The Dabber, doing 2d6+3.
This is on par with a light 2 handed NON-gun. It's also on par with other creatures using non-gun weapons at that level.
Every other creature... guns are an encounter power, recharge or otherwise limited.
Also, as mentioned, monsters get their numbers differently from players.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
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2 years ago ::
Dec 20, 2010 - 1:44AM
#48
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Lets take a look at monsters with guns. Out of the first book, there is only ONE monsters that has an at-will gun attack. The Dabber, doing 2d6+3.
This is on par with a light 2 handed NON-gun. It's also on par with other creatures using non-gun weapons at that level.
Every other creature... guns are an encounter power, recharge or otherwise limited.
The only other monster that I've seen with an at-will gun attack is the Klicky Looters from Trouble in Freesboro. They do 2d8.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 20, 2010 - 1:51AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2010
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Forgot those. The interesting part is that they're 2d8 plus ZERO. That fact alone shows that they aren't built using player numbers... they have no ability bonus to damage.
2d8 is a heavy 2 handed Ranged weapon, so it's still not "gun level power"
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
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2 years ago ::
Dec 20, 2010 - 10:00PM
#50
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What i do is just re-flavor the throw weapons as guns if i or a fellow player does not wish to keep track of ammo.
light throw
one hand +3 1d8 r5
two hand +3 1d12 r10
light gun
one hand +4 1d8 r10
two hand +4 1d12 r20
gain a +1 to accuracy and +5 or +10 range to have a item that can run out of ammo.
heavy throw
one hand +2 1d10 r5
two hand +2 2d8 r10
heavy gun
one hand +2 2d6 r10
two hand +2 2d10 r20
gain +5 or +10 range, and +2 or +4 to your max damage by using an item that can run out of ammo.
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