To me, DnD seems to be in an unusal spot, marketing wise. While other smaller game companies might not have an issue with pirated copies, because it gets people interested in their game, that doesn't work with WoTC, as if you are into gaming or not, chances are you've heard of DnD, and have some understanding of what it's about.
I am not sure if you are talking about D&D in general or the digital venture, but...
To me, D&D has always had a disjunction between their paper product and their software product. Whether it was putting 3rd party developers to work or their taking it on themselves, the talent needed to match up with the vision was just never on par with each other. It appears that the talent in the digital solution is starting to catch up to the paper. They have a ways to go, obviously.
I just think this was initially an attempt to stay true to the "hard core" D&D population, and once they realized that a digital solution was really necessary (to appease their customers), they jumped on board. It's been a game of catch-up since.
Thus, I agree that your assessment earlier that the lifespan of 4E is going to be a lot longer than what others may perceive. I think that Wizards wants the two products to be on par with each other before they get ready to strike with 5E.
The problem here (and I'm a software developer so I know) is that with a new set of rules you pretty much have to start over on your digital tools. A map maker or campaign tracker might be easy to switch over, but the CB or MB would have to be completely reworked.
I guess what I'm getting at is drawing an analogy between the current switch (3.x -> 4e) and the future switch (4e -> 5e). With the current switch they have a lot of non-customers that have gone to pathfinder etc. Maintenance of servers hosting an existing product is next to nil so no I don't buy the...shut off the tools to "force" people to buy 5e books because that will cause a split yet again where some move on to other game systems (customers they could keep) and some buy the "new shiny". Why would they want to lose that revenue.
Keep in mind this happened before they officially pulled the PDFs for 4E. When 4E came out they stopped selling previous edition PDFs. This was a deliberate move. Thus, yes all evidence points to them dropping everything 4E including the online tools.
I really think that 4th edition isn't going to be replaced anytime soon, but when 5th edition does come out I believe technoligy will be advanced enough to be able to adjust the CB for the new edition instead of coming up with a whole new set of tools.
My belief is that there will be other fine stand alone programs out there to use instead, either ones made specifically for character generation, or something that is akin to a more intuitive Excell that can be worked into a character generator. (a template being sold to accomplish this)
It won't matter, down the road, what Wizards does with "official" support for an edition that is being replaced, just as it doesn't matter now, with Herolab doing 3.5 and Pathfinder just fine, thank you.
Let's keep focused on the here and now, not a decade down the road.
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
I really think that 4th edition isn't going to be replaced anytime soon, but when 5th edition does come out I believe technoligy will be advanced enough to be able to adjust the CB for the new edition instead of coming up with a whole new set of tools.
Sure, they will adjust the tools to handle the 5th edition and no longer handle the 4th edition. It makes absolutely no sense for them to continue supporting the 4th edition after they have shifted to 5th edition (unless sometime in the next few years they stare making more money off of the digital tools than they make from the books) because supporting the old edition gives customers less of an incentive to move to the new edition - thus costing them book sales.
And who know when the edition will be replaced - it only took 3 years to move from 3e to 3.5e and another 5 years from 3.5e to 4e. We have had 4e for only two years, but they have already felt the need to massively restructure things (I'm sorry, essentials is only somewhat compatible with what came before) so who knows how long they will keep up with 4e.
The problem here (and I'm a software developer so I know) is that with a new set of rules you pretty much have to start over on your digital tools. A map maker or campaign tracker might be easy to switch over, but the CB or MB would have to be completely reworked.
Well, of course, but this doesn't really prove or disprove anything. But apparently I am missing your point.
The development of the 5E digital toolset can be going on during 5E rules development, playtesting, printing, etc. They will have time between the completion of the rules and the time they are published and shipped. They can coordinate the launch. If they want the digital product to be taken seriously moving forward, they are going to have to be parallel, if not very close to each other, particularly when 5E hits.
The very last thing that they want is an obsolete DDI during a new product launch. But we're probably at least 5 years from that happening, anyhow.
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
You make a good point... which is why I wonder why they DIDN'T develop the digital toolset along with the playtesting and everything else for 4E when that was originally one of the selling points on the new edition.
I'm all for having hope and being optimistic. But that's not for everyone, and we can't expect everyone else to keep on hoping and believing when past experience leads to the opposite conclusion.
I guess the assumption is they'll learn from previous mistakes? Again, past experience in this regard tells a different story.
You make a good point... which is why I wonder why they DIDN'T develop the digital toolset along with the playtesting and everything else for 4E when that was originally one of the selling points on the new edition.
I'm all for having hope and being optimistic. But that's not for everyone, and we can't expect everyone else to keep on hoping and believing when past experience leads to the opposite conclusion.
I guess the assumption is they'll learn from previous mistakes? Again, past experience in this regard tells a different story.
Well, they did. The 4E books are proof of that. They all contained the advertising for the full suite of the DDI subscription, or at least its intent. Something happened, though, and they were not able to deliver it for whatever reason.
I think they dove two feet in and didn't realize how deep the water was. This time around, they are so guarded about it. I really wish they would present what their vision is regarding DDI. It would be nice, as a consumer, to know what is planned. If I knew they were at least working towards a full campaign management suite, that would alleviate most of my concerns.
But they had more to worry about than deep water and their inability to swim. There were sharks in the water, too. And jellyfish. They have a hard time even dipping a toe in now, without the fear of pulling back a nub.
Obviously, Wizards is not absolved of responsibility in this. Quite the contrary. They should be held accountable for underdelivery. But moving forward, they are going to be incredibly cautious moving forward because the water is still wrought with danger. So much more could get accomplished if they could work together with the community. I think they are trying to, but as soon as that toe gets in the water, it's being attacked.
Both Wizards and the customers need really do need to just put their faith back in each other right now. It will solve so many of the problems so much sooner. All this attack and defense is so counterproductive. But hey, I guess that's the optimist in me.
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
You make a good point... which is why I wonder why they DIDN'T develop the digital toolset along with the playtesting and everything else for 4E when that was originally one of the selling points on the new edition.
I'm all for having hope and being optimistic. But that's not for everyone, and we can't expect everyone else to keep on hoping and believing when past experience leads to the opposite conclusion.
I guess the assumption is they'll learn from previous mistakes? Again, past experience in this regard tells a different story.
Well, they did. The 4E books are proof of that. They all contained the advertising for the full suite of the DDI subscription, or at least its intent. Something happened, though, and they were not able to deliver it for whatever reason.
I think they dove two feet in and didn't realize how deep the water was. This time around, they are so guarded about it. I really wish they would present what their vision is regarding DDI. It would be nice, as a consumer, to know what is planned. If I knew they were at least working towards a full campaign management suite, that would alleviate most of my concerns.
But they had more to worry about than deep water and their inability to swim. There were sharks in the water, too. And jellyfish. They have a hard time even dipping a toe in now, without the fear of pulling back a nub.
Obviously, Wizards is not absolved of responsibility in this. Quite the contrary. They should be held accountable for underdelivery. But moving forward, they are going to be incredibly cautious moving forward because the water is still wrought with danger. So much more could get accomplished if they could work together with the community. I think they are trying to, but as soon as that toe gets in the water, it's being attacked.
Both Wizards and the customers need really do need to just put their faith back in each other right now. It will solve so many of the problems so much sooner. All this attack and defense is so counterproductive. But hey, I guess that's the optimist in me.
I think they get more crap than they need to but lets be honest. They are a company. If they cannot deal with angry customers, or they get their feelings hurt by people, then they should not be in the business that they are in. It doesn't happpen on the book side and it souldn't happen on the Digital side.
And with some people, it is not just the Digital Tools. It is the entire thing - the company - the game - and then this replacement CB is just the tipping point where alot of people are parting ways - and guess what? Alot of those people are angry and dissapointed to be parting ways with the company. I know an entire group that moved to pathfinder. BTW not mine, we are playing with essentials right now). The CB was just the last straw and they said screw it. Are they upset? Yep, they are not playing the official D&D anymore for the first time in 30 years.
So just as when D&D 4.0 came out and divided the community when some people realized that they are not WotC customers anymore, there are going to be a bunch of people that realize that this is the case for them now. The only thing is, now you have essentials and people who preferr the old CB on top of that.
So anyways, I am glad that you are optimistic about the tools. I really am. But to alot of us, they have to show it. A new tool would have gone a huge way into getting people back into the fold.
WOTC Podcast: "The web is a shortcut" "Piracy was a big thing"
Hrm... well, I guess proof can be "here's the vision we have" to some. I know they were thinking about a lot of great things, and I truly believe they still are thinking about how to make use of modern technology. I haven't lost complete faith in them or imagined them as money-grubbing robber-barons.
I just recall seeing those adds back when 4E first came out... or at least when I first saw it available while deployed. It was my first experience with actual D&D, though I'd played RPGs in the past. I thought it all sounded great, and I set up my DnDI account soon after, thinking their plans for the future sounded pretty cool, even though I didn't know if I'd ever need all those virtual tools and what-not. Now I'm glad I wasn't counting on them to deliver on their vision.
I'm totally fine with them moving forward cautiously IF that means that they're making sensible decisions and taking customers' desires into account as much as possible. Those two things won't always work out; we have a knack for expecting everything and then some, and they do have to make a profit if this game is going to survive.
I just don't see them moving forward cautiously. "Oh hey, in a couple weeks, here are some sweeping changes you can expect... surprise!" doesn't strike me as cautious. The flame and vitriol on these boards shows I'm not the only one who might see it that way.
If by any means they are able to avoid underdelivery and/or empty promises in the future, I am glad for it. I'm happy they have vision, and I try to be optimistic.
But I'll refer you to your signature, and I'll keep my expectations low for now.
I guess I'm not seeing why they would "turn off" the 4e CB when the release 5e because they'll just be cutting off a current revenue stream.
The same reason they caused the cessation of sales of eTools when 4E was announced. They cut off a revenue stream then; CMP were paying license fees to them, but they saw strengthening the new brand as more important. I expect them to do exactly the same when 5E debuts - and I have absolutely no problem with them doing so. My point is that I refuse to pay for a product that is set up such that it will screw me over when this happens. I regard that as nothing more than rational.
In the previous changeovers (1e->2e, 2e->3e, 3e->3.5e, 3.5e->4e) there was no ongoing revenue stream which was likely a big factor in developing a new edition at those times. With DDI as it is structured now I'd be hard pressed to turn of the money printing machines.
I couldn't say how "major" the licensing fees were for eTools, but I would expect the 4E CB to be replaced seamlessly by the 5E CB, giving DDI subscribers continuing "service" without interruption, so there should be no question of any lost revenue stream, in Wizards' eyes.
