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3 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2010 - 9:47AM
#61
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It was locked for various reasons, none of which had anything to do with freedom of speech or "quieting down," which by the way, does not necessarily apply to message boards. The thread was rather derogatory by nature and evolved into nothing but a petty bickering match.
The thread was requested by many to be locked, myself included.
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept.
Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new.
Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Default module =/= Core mechanic.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2010 - 12:18PM
#62
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Date Joined:
May 16, 2004
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Well, for the sake of argument. I don't. The thread is locked so I cannot fully comment, but what he mentions goes against the ideals of capitalism and free speech in general. -If- WotC wanted to listen to the public opinion, they would have listened in the years that DDI has been available. If they wanted to communicate, they would have chosen to do so, instead of limiting communications between portions of the company. It's a matter of intent and action.
BTW. Other threads that are deemed inflammatory or against the ToS, but this is one of the few threads I see as locked. I guess someone (WotC) like the idea of all the people whom have problems quieting down.
I do not think what the OP was saying is a matter of freedom of speech. Nowhere did he say that you must not or cannot use inflammatory words or even insults, even though some insults are prohibited here in Germany and as well in the US. So, he is not saying: you must not use such and such words. What he is saying is that the use of such words may not get you the attention from WotC that you want. For him, as for me, this is really not a matter of freedom of speech. It is a matter of civility and the question of how to best reach the ears of WotC and make sure they understand what I want as a customer. And telling them that they are liars and cheats that perform headshots on their customers out of greed is not the way to do that. Again, I have said that before, I would not listen to a person speaking to me like this and I do not expect others to listen to me when I use this sort of language.
He also thinks that one should not expect WotC to transparently explain everything they do in a way that will satisfy all of us. I could not agree more. As I have posted before, WotC offers a service and I, the customer, can choose if I like that service or don't. It is worth the price they are asking. But the decision to build an online CB is WotCs decision that they have tried to explain to me. I can take their offer or leave it. And I can speculate about the reasons they have for making that decision.
To take an example of a different product: Diet Coke is called Coke light here in Germany. Why did the Coca Cola company decide to use that name? They did not give a reason. I did not expect them to. The only thing that is important for me is whether I like the stuff. I will buy it if the price is right. If not, it will grow moldy in the shelf.
Also: I find your remark that what the OP is saying goes against the ideals of capitalism interesting. But I don't understand it. You will have to explain it to me.
The OP writes, for example, that people should not only threaten to cancel their subscriptions, but should go through with the threat and unsubscribe immediately. So what he wants people to do is influence WotC through the factor of supply and demand. Now, supply and demand is the basic principle of a market economy. So how does what he is saying not concur with capitalism? He is actually pledging for consumer strength through buying power.
Explain to me why you think otherwise.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2010 - 12:29PM
#63
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2003
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Freedom of speech.  Freedom of speech is the concept that a government cannot control your speech. That clearly does not apply to message boards. Even the ToS for the boards makes that clear.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2010 - 8:29PM
#64
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Well, for the sake of argument. I don't. The thread is locked so I cannot fully comment, but what he mentions goes against the ideals of capitalism and free speech in general. -If- WotC wanted to listen to the public opinion, they would have listened in the years that DDI has been available. If they wanted to communicate, they would have chosen to do so, instead of limiting communications between portions of the company. It's a matter of intent and action.
BTW. Other threads that are deemed inflammatory or against the ToS, but this is one of the few threads I see as locked. I guess someone (WotC) like the idea of all the people whom have problems quieting down.
I do not think what the OP was saying is a matter of freedom of speech. Nowhere did he say that you must not or cannot use inflammatory words or even insults, even though some insults are prohibited here in Germany and as well in the US. So, he is not saying: you must not use such and such words. What he is saying is that the use of such words may not get you the attention from WotC that you want. For him, as for me, this is really not a matter of freedom of speech. It is a matter of civility and the question of how to best reach the ears of WotC and make sure they understand what I want as a customer. And telling them that they are liars and cheats that perform headshots on their customers out of greed is not the way to do that. Again, I have said that before, I would not listen to a person speaking to me like this and I do not expect others to listen to me when I use this sort of language.
He also thinks that one should not expect WotC to transparently explain everything they do in a way that will satisfy all of us. I could not agree more. As I have posted before, WotC offers a service and I, the customer, can choose if I like that service or don't. It is worth the price they are asking. But the decision to build an online CB is WotCs decision that they have tried to explain to me. I can take their offer or leave it. And I can speculate about the reasons they have for making that decision.
To take an example of a different product: Diet Coke is called Coke light here in Germany. Why did the Coca Cola company decide to use that name? They did not give a reason. I did not expect them to. The only thing that is important for me is whether I like the stuff. I will buy it if the price is right. If not, it will grow moldy in the shelf.
Also: I find your remark that what the OP is saying goes against the ideals of capitalism interesting. But I don't understand it. You will have to explain it to me.
The OP writes, for example, that people should not only threaten to cancel their subscriptions, but should go through with the threat and unsubscribe immediately. So what he wants people to do is influence WotC through the factor of supply and demand. Now, supply and demand is the basic principle of a market economy. So how does what he is saying not concur with capitalism? He is actually pledging for consumer strength through buying power.
Explain to me why you think otherwise.
Since you ask.. if the post is considered inflammatory, the mods usually -remove- the post. Which this may seem contrary, the post was more inflammatory towards users complaining rather than against WotC, whereas posts that tend to be against WotC (even if they aren't inflammatory, I've experienced this twice over) are removed quietly. Once, without even an explanation. I understand that the ToS are explicit and that WotC can choose to do what they will, but this is clearly inconsistent behavior.
As far as 'just closing everything'. They've done that before. It was met with such a negative backlash that I'm certain that they're wise enough not to do it again. But.. these posts are getting off track. I just feel that they have a lot of work to do to re-earn my trust. Hince the 'change in tone' from most users are because of this broken trust. It's all a big circle. Yes, some users are inflammatory, but I'm rarely insulting, and usually put careful thought into my posts.. and my decisions.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2010 - 9:08PM
#65
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2004
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@Khorax: ORCs usually only react to reported posts/threads. WotC would need hundreds of moderators if they wanted to constantly monitor all boards and threads for any CoC breaches. It's easier and most often more effective to let the community report bad posts and moderate them then. Also, I know several other boards where A LOT of members would be temporarily or even permanently banned (both from the forums and any other service) for behaving like some users did in the last few days. Try pulling something like this off e.g. on the Blizzard boards and you can kiss your B.Net account goodbye. Calling company representatives "liars" or "idiots" or "incompetent" is a pretty uncool way to ask for an account deletion and WotC is the only company I know that lets people get away with that. What some people seem to forget: WotC has CC information (or some other payment data) and thus is able to reliably identify every subscriber (or any user who ever was a subscriber). And just recently trolling on the internet got a little more rewarding.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2010 - 9:31PM
#66
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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@Khorax:
ORCs usually only react to reported posts/threads. WotC would need hundreds of moderators if they wanted to constantly monitor all boards and threads for any CoC breaches. It's easier and most often more effective to let the community report bad posts and moderate them then.
Also, I know several other boards where A LOT of members would be temporarily or even permanently banned (both from the forums and any other service) for behaving like some users did in the last few days. Try pulling something like this off e.g. on the Blizzard boards and you can kiss your B.Net account goodbye. Calling company representatives "liars" or "idiots" or "incompetent" is a pretty uncool way to ask for an account deletion and WotC is the only company I know that lets people get away with that.
What some people seem to forget: WotC has CC information (or some other payment data) and thus is able to reliably identify every subscriber (or any user who ever was a subscriber). And just recently trolling on the internet got a little more rewarding.
Oh, I understand it's reactionary, but they can choose -how- to react. It's not that they react, it's -how-. I'm not going to jump up and scream conspiracy, but I'm not going to dismiss the idea either. We can't determine how many people complain, or what the official policies are based off of what they tell us. I've been a victim of some fairly plain posts (without the above mentioned info) being removed, simply because they shed a negative light. Now, I keep copies of all my posts in case they start pulling them again to protect my ability to express myself. (Note, I'm not talking about the right to free speech. If I don't say it here, I -will- say it elsewhere).
Adding insult to injury, expecting them to sue me because I'm pointing out some pretty glaring errors in judgement that are easily proven is pretty harsh. I don't think they want -that- level of negative backlash levied upon them. CC information or not, there are expectations of behavior, and I -have- behaved myself. If they wish to add more fuel to the fire, it's on them.
To be honest, I want nothing more than for WotC to shape up and prosper. I'm not saying this to tear them down, I'm saying this for people to look into it and hopefully to stop them from making the same mistakes over and over as they have been. I'm not looking to call them "liars", "idiots" or "incompetent". I'm not looking to troll. I'm expressing myself as a currently dissatisfied and honestly upset customer whom hasn't been treated with respect.
As I've said before. The ball's been in WotC's court this entire time. They've had every move, made every choice. I, as a consumer, can choose to no longer do business. "Vote with my dollars", but that never improves a company, especially in this day when it becomes a calculated loss.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 07, 2010 - 6:02AM
#67
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2007
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I loved CB. I worked with it for less than a day before I realized it would really help my campaign's bookkeeping. So, I paid for 2 years worth. But because some other people cheated, and because Wizards is really greedy, they are yanking it out from underneath me. That gets me very angry.
This right here is what I believe to be the basic problem. IMO Wizards made a move because they saw their revenue going down due to a poor business model. Unless what you're saying is that Wizards should not be allowed to make a profit. I place my anger towards what I believe to be the real problems:
1) Some moron at WotC picked this unsustainable model for the CB software.
2) Many people took advantage of this idiotic model and got a really good deal (causing the company to lose money).
Note that I didn't say anything about Wizards being greedy in there anywhere. I am still mostly blaming Wizards for the problem, but to expect a company to be altruistic is unrealistic. The goal of EVERY company is to make profit. Capitalism works because everyone is greedy and looks out for their own interests.
Another reasonable model might have been to have a base purchase price at the store for the software and every time they release an update they charge a nominal fee for development and the same for new content (although a larger price is acceptable for new content). But this is neither here or there just me rambling. I do think there choice of new model was pretty good. It prevents the major problem they had before while keeping brand new customers from having a really expensive "buy in".
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3 years ago ::
Nov 07, 2010 - 7:56AM
#68
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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1. When I played RPGs before 4e I did not use a computer to make characters. I filled out character sheets by hand. And that was fine. It became a lot of work to make a higher level character in 3.x, but it was still fine. And many of those character sheets fill drawers in my house after 25+ years of gaming. When I look at those sheets, I have fond memories.
Now, all of a sudden, there are people on this forum who actually want to tell me that WotC is “kidnapping” my character because I am saving the character’s data on a WotC server. Huh? Did I miss a meeting? How does that kidnap my character? I can still print out the character sheet and have the character right there. Is “kidnapping” not a little over the top? Do you really have to use this word?
The experience of play D&D 4e has changes. What is so hard to get about that?
Instead of buying a refriderator I could make my own or dig a hole so the stuff stays cool too.
WOTC Podcast:
"The web is a shortcut"
"Piracy was a big thing"
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3 years ago ::
Nov 07, 2010 - 10:18AM
#69
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2010
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the tone has changed for sure
there is alot of people walking away/hocking their books/ canceling their subscriptions
the issue was the suddenness of the web based tools, we got one obscure Mention to it when trevor was explaining the delays and setting the date for the October update arrival. the subject was largly undiscussed as we were still fuming over not having our long awaited and promised updates. so of course we would react harshly, they changed the game while we were already pissed at them.
as for all filling out the sheet with pencil and paper, there is so much errata and so much changing of rules that if you took the PHB1 in and of itself you could not make a character who is legal by the current rules.
content wise, i love the books, i refuse to buy anymore of them because of poor customer treatment but to give wizards credit where its due their content is superb essentials book 1 is very good essentials book 2 is eh shouldn't of recycled defender aura and power strike to other classes but the warlock looks fantastic from the time i skimmed the book Thursday
from a business perspective i dont understand what they are looking to do. business is the profit seeking activities they are not marketing their products properly because there is no incentive to buy the books other then impatience for CB updates. now they have turned the CB it into less of a product, this has already decreased subscriptions and many more people will stop playing altogether (not good for the current customer base) if their sales advisors are predicting increased book sales because of decreased subscriptions, they are right, in the short term but long term it makes the game less attractive to new customers.
the tone has changed on these boards and its not just because of nerd rage or a bad product its because of bad customer relations and marketing.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 07, 2010 - 12:05PM
#70
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Date Joined:
May 16, 2004
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The experience of play D&D 4e has changes. What is so hard to get about that?
Instead of buying a refriderator I could make my own or dig a hole so the stuff stays cool too.
Oh, I totally see that the playing experience with 4e has changed. One of the reasons why I probably will never go back to 3.5 as a DM is the ease with which I can prepare for gaming sessions in 4e. And that has something to do with the software WotC offers with a subscription.
But, again, this thread is not about the content of DDI, it is about the tone used in these forums. And it seems to me that just because we all got pampered by the CB, this does not entitle us to have a huge and really ugly hissyfit just because WotC is moving online-only. They changed the way they offer the service called CB. There is no "hijacking" involved, since you still have access to the information that is your character.
Plus, again, this rage leads nowhere.
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