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Oct 28, 2010 -- 10:04PM, ExcalibursZone wrote:

I would rule that conditions are not duplicated since the premise behind the Doppleganger Novice Power is that you are using a you from a different worldline that is unaffected by the conditions affecting your current you.

That sort of logic can begin a slippery slope into the deep pits of 'Uh Oh'.  If I can bring in another me who was not blinded by an enemy's attack, why could I not:
- Bring in an other self who then uses an encounter power (non alpha, omega, or doppleganger) that I have already spent, because I can call on a timeline where I did not spend it.
- Bring in an other self, who then fires an ammunition weapon, every single round, without ever expending my own ammo, since I can keep finding timelines where I had not taken a shot with the gun in question.
- Use a bunch of grenades, sticks of dynamite, or similar to make a suicide vest, then keep calling on timelines where my other selves are mentally unstable and looking for a reason to blow themselves up, creating an endless stream of suicide bombers to use on enemies.

Of course, ruling that the power makes an exact copy of you (conditions and all), doesn't really prevent any of these.  You could make copies of yourself before you spend encounters and let your copies expend theirs, or let them spend the ammo, or even blow themselves up.  The only way to prevent these abuses is to rule that the copy cannot use anything expendible, be it ammo or encounter powers or suicide vests...

Oct 29, 2010 -- 10:42PM, stonewynd wrote:

Oct 27, 2010 -- 12:17PM, ExcalibursZone wrote:

ORIGINS:
Q: Do Engineered Humans add their overcharge bonus to the overall overcharge bonus?
A: Yes, if Engineered Human is the characters primary origin. According to the rules and default option for determining your origins, the Engineered Human origin will always be a secondary origin. The rules state that only the primary origin provides an overcharge bonus. Since E.H. is a secondary origin (by default) its origin overcharge bonuses are not applied.

so what is the point of the human having +2 to everything if it is not applied?

plus the 4th line on page 34 say you gain the traits of both origins. the +2 to all overcharge is a trait.

Read and understand the rules. As written, you only get the traits gain the overcharge bonus of your primary. That is the first origin you have. It is s.p.e.c.i.f.i.c while the gain traits of both origins is g.e.n.e.r.a.l and therefore the general rule is overruled by the specific rule.

The reason there is a +2 to all overcharges is in case the E.H. origin is primary and therefore gains the overcharge bonuses of E.H. which you can only do if you choose your origins. Read the sidebar about choosing origins.

This is one of the most confusing for people who don't really read anything in the book. Don't read the thing half-way and skip the rest. It states in 2 (that's TWO) places that you only gain the overcharge bonus from your primary origin. Go ahead and read the book, you'll see that's what it says.

That's it, end of story, no more questions about this, period (though there'll be more questions and confusion about this because people don't read and comprehend what they've read).

If you want to house rule that both overcharge bonuses stack, go right ahead, but don't argue that the rules are confusing on this point because it is stated twice in the book.

(edited to fix "get the traits" to "gain the overcharge bonus").

Oct 29, 2010 -- 11:40PM, stonewynd wrote:

Oct 29, 2010 -- 10:50PM, ExcalibursZone wrote:

Oct 29, 2010 -- 10:42PM, stonewynd wrote:

Oct 27, 2010 -- 12:17PM, ExcalibursZone wrote:

ORIGINS:
Q: Do Engineered Humans add their overcharge bonus to the overall overcharge bonus?
A: Yes, if Engineered Human is the characters primary origin. According to the rules and default option for determining your origins, the Engineered Human origin will always be a secondary origin. The rules state that only the primary origin provides an overcharge bonus. Since E.H. is a secondary origin (by default) its origin overcharge bonuses are not applied.

so what is the point of the human having +2 to everything if it is not applied?

plus the 4th line on page 34 say you gain the traits of both origins. the +2 to all overcharge is a trait.

Read and UNDERSTAND the rules. As written, you only get the traits gain the overcharge bonus of your PRIMARY. THAT IS THE FIRST ORIGIN YOU HAVE. IT IS S.P.E.C.I.F.I.C. while the gain traits of both origins is G.E.N.E.R.A.L. and therefore the general rule is overruled by the specific rule.

The reason there is a +2 to all overcharges is in case the E.H. origin is primary and therefore gains the overcharge bonuses of E.H. which you can only do if you choose your origins. Read the sidebar about choosing origins.

This is one of the most confusing for people who don't really read anything in the book. Don't read the thing half-way and skip the rest. It states in 2 (that's TWO) places that you only gain the overcharge bonus from your primary origin. Go ahead and read the book, you'll see that's what it says.

That's it, end of story, no more stupid questions about this, period (though there'll be more questions and confusion about this because people don't read and comprehend what they've read).

If you want to house rule that both overcharge bonuses stack, go right ahead, but don't argue that the rules are confusing on this point because it is stated twice in the book.

(edited to fix "get the traits" to "gain the overcharge bonus").

i just wanted a rules clarification. you did not have to be rude about it. i have read the rules. my gaming group all mistook this. 21 people

My apologies for the rudeness, I think that sometimes it helps people pay attention. And since I've had to deal with people asking this question over and over and over again and people arguing and rationalizing why the overcharge rules don't apply to Engineered Humans, I get a little miffy. Especially when some people tend to argue just to tick others off.

When I first created characters, I thought they stacked as well. But, the RAW (Rules As Written) are 100% perfectly clear in 2 spots about this. I caught this on a fourth reread of the rules.

*Page 30: Roll your origins. If your second roll matches your first roll, your second origin is Engineered Human.

*Page 34: If your second roll is the same as the first, then your second origin is Engineered Human.

*Page 34: You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin.

*Page 35: Rolling or Choosing Origins? They give the option of rolling for both (default), rolling one and picking a complemantery origin, picking the first and rolling the second, or "being a big chicken" by choosing both (if your Game Master permits it).

*Page 57: What is Human? Does not override the primary origin overcharge bonus rule. It's a sidebar that gives you ideas as to why a Cockroach/Engineered Human has the powers of a Cockroach.

*Page 67: Sidebar: Overcharing Alpha Mutations. Your primary origin might give you a bonus to overcharging certain Alpha powers.

The fact that Engineered Humans do not have an overcharge type (Bio, Dark, or Psi) does not override the primary overcharge bonus rule. It simply implies that since the E.H. gains a +2 for all overcharges, then there is no specific type they are acclimated to.

I would rule that if other overcharge types appear (say Arcane or Mechanical for instance) that the Engineered Human would gain +2 for those new types as well. BUT, if E.H. is not your primary origin, according to the RAW, then you wouldn't benefit from that additional +2.

Again, you may house rule that all traits stack. It's your game. But if you intend to run the game with the RAW, then overcharge bonuses from secondary origins do not apply, do not stack, and are simply ignored.