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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 7:02AM
#21
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I think you're supposed to choose your primary origin off the table, then roll your secondary origin, and if you roll your secondary identical to your primary pick, you get Engineered Human. Which I think may actually increase your chances of getting EH.
As for the overcharge bonuses, I figured that since the specific overrides the general, Engineered Human is the only secondary origin that provides overcharge bonuses.
I think toning the EH down misses the point. You have something like a one in two hundred chance of rolling doubles on 2d20, so their extras are balanced out by their rarity.
The rules say you roll both, and then provide alternatives, one of whitch is your suggestion. Getting an X EH is no rarer than any other combination of X Y.
As to the topic at hand: I'm inclined to follow the RAW, but if it's only on the one page maybe it is supposed to be primary. But I thought the overcharge was basically because you wouldn't get it primary so it didn't really matter what it was. (as long as it was made the "right" way)
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 9:06AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2010
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I think you're supposed to choose your primary origin off the table, then roll your secondary origin, and if you roll your secondary identical to your primary pick, you get Engineered Human. Which I think may actually increase your chances of getting EH.
As for the overcharge bonuses, I figured that since the specific overrides the general, Engineered Human is the only secondary origin that provides overcharge bonuses.
I think toning the EH down misses the point. You have something like a one in two hundred chance of rolling doubles on 2d20, so their extras are balanced out by their rarity.
1: Nowhere in the rules does it say or even imply that you choose a primary origin and then roll a secondary.
2: Specific overrides general, yes... but where does EH says "You get this overcharge bonus even as a secondary origin"? It does not, therefore there is nothing overriding.
3: You have a 1 in 20 chance of rolling EH, same as any other secondary origin.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 9:27AM
#23
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I thought when they were previewing GW in Ampersand or Dragon that they said if you rolled doubles, your origin was Engineered Human, period. This doesn't really work with the current rules, since you wouldn't have power picks at certain levels, but I think I recall them saying this.
I think with my group, I'm going to count EH as a primary, with the first roll becoming the secondary, assuming my guys want to randomly roll.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 9:46AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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You're right on the odds of rolling EH as written -- I really should learn not to make definitive statements on probability at five in the morning. I was confusing the chances of rolling EH with the chances of rolling a specific origin/EH combo.
Pick primary/roll secondary is one of the options in the sidebar on page 35, as mentioned by Tony_Varga in the post right above mine. I should have said "if you use that option" to make it clearer that that's what I was referring to.
Assuming the EH writeup isn't in error, you get the bonus to overcharge because because the EH writeup says you get the bonus, and EH can only be a secondary origin in the rules-as-written. Page 34: "If your second roll is the same as the first, then your second origin is Engineered Human."
Now, yes, page 35 gives you the option to roll-then-choose, or choose-then-roll. But:
- if you roll-then-choose, rolling on the table for your primary and picking EH as your secondary, then, well, EH is your secondary.
- and if you choose-then-roll, you choose your primary from the table, and if you roll the same for your secondary, you get EH as your secondary.
If you weren't supposed to get the overcharge bonus, it would explicitly state "no bonus to overcharge" or just leave it off entirely, because secondary origins normally don't get an overcharge bonus, and EH can only be secondary.
I will grant that it's implicit rather than explicit that EH is secondary-only. But I'll grant you that it's also implicit rather than explicit in the presented option that, when choosing an origin, you can only choose from the table. So we're back where we started, which is why I fall back on "specific beats general." Page 11 of the D&D PH, or page 29 of the D&D Rules Compendium. "Every class, race, feat, power, and monster in the D&D game lets you break the rules in some way." This is how the EH breaks the rules. Specific beats general.
Your mileage, of course, may vary.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 9:49AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Apr 17, 2008
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That's not how specific-beats-general works though in 4e-style rules. Otherwise all of the other secondary origins give the same bonus too and the general rule becomes obsoleted, which makes no sense.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 11:04AM
#26
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Specific beat general means when an ability condradicts the rules, the ability wins. No where is there an abilit for EH that says it grants the overcharge bonus even as secondary origin. Therefore specific beats general doesn't apply. The specific rule break has to be stated, not infered.
It's likely that it was put there for when people choose origins, since there is no rule saying it can't be primary, only that it is secondary when you roll doubles on d20's. We can assume it is only for "Big Chicken" games. Or that it is supposed to be primary instead of secondary, and considering how it's talked about it does feel that way. After this discussion I think thats the stance I'm going to take (+4 instead of Int modifier puts it's chance to hit on par with being primary).
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 11:08AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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Oraibi's right: the kind of rules-by-implication that's being engaged in here isn't 'exception based,' it's the kind of silliness exception-based design is supposed to avoid.
Nowhere is there a rule that says EH is always secondary. It's only /implied/ by the default random origin determination. Nowhere is there a rule that says the EH overcharge bonus aplies even if it is a secondary origin. That's only implied by the implication that EH can only be secondary. There's no specific rule to beat the general /because there's no rule at all/, general or specific.
An EH can absolutely be a primary origin - you can pick it as your primary under two of the three alternatives given in the sidebar. If there were no overcharge bonus, you guys might be whining that it's absence implies that you can't choose it as a primary!
Seriously, there's no big mystery or contradiction here.
I can also agree with jedi123. The tone of much of the EH origin implies (there's that word again) that at least at some point in development, it was meant to be a sole or primary origin. Making EH primary when you roll doubles would certainly be a reasonable variant that the EH write-up would smoothly support with no further house-ruling.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 11:35AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2009
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I don't have my book handy right now, but there is a page that lists what you get at 1st level. It says you get the traits for both origins. So, if you have two Psi based origins, +2 to Psi overcharge becomes +4.
Skills are the same way. Look up the skills section, those bonuses also stack. There is nothing to say that the Overcharge bonuses don't stack.
I really don't understand the confusion on the origins front. You can't roll EH on the first origin. If you duplicate the first origin roll on your second origin roll, your second Origin is *instead* Engineered Human. Pretty straight forward I'd say.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 11:49AM
#29
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I don't have my book handy right now, but there is a page that lists what you get at 1st level. It says you get the traits for both origins. So, if you have two Psi based origins, +2 to Psi overcharge becomes +4.
Skills are the same way. Look up the skills section, those bonuses also stack. There is nothing to say that the Overcharge bonuses don't stack.
I really don't understand the confusion on the origins front. You can't roll EH on the first origin. If you duplicate the first origin roll on your second origin roll, your second Origin is *instead* Engineered Human. Pretty straight forward I'd say.
Page 34: You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls to Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin.
So we have a reason to raise the question.
To further a past point: This is where specific beats general comes in, as the EH entry giving +2 to all overcharges (since it has no power source), if it is primary (by houserule, or variant provided in the book).
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 12:06PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2009
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To further the point of specific beats general; all includes Bio, Dark, & Psi, so could we conclude that the specificity of EH overcharge overrides page 34?
We need some official errata on this from WOTC.
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