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3 years ago ::
Oct 11, 2010 - 6:10AM
#11
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I think the +4 bonus to engineered human attacks rather than basing it off a stat is based on the assumption that engineered human is going to be the secondary origin. Otherwise, it would likely only be a +3 bonus unless the primary origin was also INT. That said, it makes sense to just use the engineered human overcharge bonus even if it's secondary as a feature of that origin.
Other than stats and the overcharge bonus, is there anything else affected by which origin is primary?
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3 years ago ::
Oct 11, 2010 - 11:48AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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I get the impression Engingeered Human was re-engineered several times.
The +2 to all overcharges speaks to the possibility of it being a primary origin.
The What is it to be Human? sidebar implies that it is an overriding origin (primary or not, it defines a character more than other origins).
The static +4 instead of a stat reference in the powers implies that, when the powers were written, it didn't have a fixed primary stat.
The /two/ +4 skill bonuses might even imply that it was original a sole origin, not meant to be combined with others. (ie, you roll doubles: you /are/ an Engineered Human, period - you could still do that, but you'd need to come up with 3 more powers: I'd recomend looking at Warlord powers as a starting place).
The random origin determination rule comes right out and says it's always a secondary origin. Well, unless you use the 'chicken' system and pick an origin.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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3 years ago ::
Oct 11, 2010 - 11:46PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Mar 23, 2008
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The chicken system does make me wonder if they wrote the extra information into the engineered human just for people using that creation system. Wizards might have though that the chicken system would be more widely used amongst their target audiance (4e players) who are use to picking every aspect of the character they are playing. Maybe they put it there so the variant creation system could still use them to the fullest effect? Seems possible. Dang now some wizards rep is gunna jump on this forum and say "Yeah we did that on purpose n00bs! You should have known that our game building skillz is just that 1337 yo!" Probably in those words exactly.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 12, 2010 - 7:39AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2010
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Yeah I don't think they meant just primary origin on page 34, since they went through the trouble of writing "+2 to xxxx overcharge" on all of the origin stat pages, where xxxx is the same as the power source but speaks nothing about primary/secondary.
It's not just on page 34, it is also on page 67 about Overcharging. Last sentence - "Your primary origin might give you a bonus to overcharging certain Alpha powers."
So it seems to indicate that only primary origins influence your overcharge rolls. so the question is how does one become an Engineered Human as a primary using the RAW, or, is there a mistake and that when you double up on your origin roll Engineered Human becomes primary and what you roll first becomes secondary?
Yes, there are many ways to home-rule this, but for Game Day we should be true to the Rules in all aspects.
I am just surprised that no TPTB have weighed in, I 'll try asking on the 4e Rules Q&A thread.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 22, 2010 - 10:08PM
#15
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Hmmm. I read it that despite EH being a secondary power, it gives a +2 to any overcharge attempt, which makes pushes your primary origin overcharges to a +4.
Barring that, I'll just make EH become an automatic primary.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 22, 2010 - 10:19PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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You could always just rule that the overcharge bonus doesn't stack, that would mean that the Engineered Human's overcharge bonuses overwrite those of the character's primary.
I'm going with RAW for game day but for any ongoing campaign, if you have Engineered Human as an origin, I will let the player either roll to see if it is dominant, or allow the player to choose. I could just say: tough luck, your primary is engineered human...but that actually makes things better for the player in terms of the overcharge bonus.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 22, 2010 - 11:38PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2009
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I think too much is being read into the RAW. Engineered Human is not available on the Primary d20 roll. It can only come into play if the second roll is the same as the first roll. Overcharge bonuses stack. So for example, my first character roll was an 18, Speedster. My second roll was 18, which made my second Origin Engineered Human. My Overcharge bonus for Psi mutations is +4, 2 from Speedster & 2 from EH. My Overcharge for Bio or Dark is +2.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 12:13AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Apr 17, 2008
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Overcharge bonuses stack.
This statement isn't supported by the rules.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 12:33AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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so the question is how does one become an Engineered Human as a primary using the RAW
By using the 'choose your primary origin/roll your secondary' system in the "Rolling or Choosing Origins?" side-bar.
Hey, it's a rule, it's writen right there in the book. Sure, it's one of several 'options' (but, hey, everything's at the GM's option), just like using standard array, point-buy, or random stat generation in D&D.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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3 years ago ::
Oct 23, 2010 - 2:02AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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I think you're supposed to choose your primary origin off the table, then roll your secondary origin, and if you roll your secondary identical to your primary pick, you get Engineered Human. Which I think may actually increase your chances of getting EH.
As for the overcharge bonuses, I figured that since the specific overrides the general, Engineered Human is the only secondary origin that provides overcharge bonuses.
I think toning the EH down misses the point. You have something like a one in two hundred chance of rolling doubles on 2d20, so their extras are balanced out by their rarity.
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