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3 years ago ::
Oct 24, 2010 - 10:24PM
#51
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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IIF you choose your primary origin to be Engineered Human, yes it becomes your primary origin (IIF means If and only If).
If you roll your origins as per the default it clearly states: Engineered Human is your SECONDARY origin.
Sure, the guys and gals at WotC who wrote this version of the rules *might* have meant this or that to be the case but *may* have changed their minds or *could have* edited poorly (most likely all of them).
The fact of the matter is this: the "rolling for your origin rules" state that Engineered Human is your secondary origin. Period. END OF DISCUSSION.
The sidebar "What is a Human" does NOT, and I repeat DOES.NOT state that Engineered Human becomes your primary origin in any way, shape or form.
All the sidebar does is give you a way to describe why your seemingly 100% looking human has claws and is shredding off rashers of bacon from a Porker (secondary origin: Felinoid). What does that tell me IN CONTEXT? That Engineered Human was chosen as the primary origin and Felinoid *might* have been chosen or rolled for your secondary origin.
My guess is that the folks who gave us the game allowed you to choose first, then, in their infinite wisdom, thought that it'd be more fun to do it randomly. They didn't properly edit anything after that, which is usually a standard practice for the poor editing practices at WotC.
So, no matter how you try to read into it using any page, sidbar, or what-the-hell-ever you think justifies it as RAW, as long as the Engineered Human origin is listed as your secondary origin, there is no fracking.gods.dang.way it will provide an overcharge bonus. UNLESS you rule it a house rule!
Wrap your heads around that, read it 20-30 times, let it sink in. It is not rocket science. Secondary origins DO NOT provide overcharge bonuses. PERIOD.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 24, 2010 - 10:46PM
#52
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2002
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HOUSE RULE: Engineered Humans provide overcharge bonus to all alpha mutations.
It amuses me when people so emphatically defend RAW. Especially when they are aware of the poor editing of WotC products. Call me an idiot but I tend to err on the side of common sense.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 24, 2010 - 10:53PM
#53
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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IIF they are primary origins, yes, they do. Secondary? NO. Stop being an idiot.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 25, 2010 - 12:02AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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HOUSE RULE: Engineered Humans provide overcharge bonus to all alpha mutations.
It amuses me when people so emphatically defend RAW. Especially when they are aware of the poor editing of WotC products. Call me an idiot but I tend to err on the side of common sense.
Thanks for changing that to house rule after I posted my response. *rolleyes*
Anyway, glad to see that at least one person has declared their decision a house rule so this is hopefully cleared up. Now to unsubscribe from this thread so I don't have to see more rationalizing from the min-maxers.
I was thinking about ignoring the primary origin rule for overcharging so that the overcharge bonus is added for all origins, not just for EH. I'll have to see about that after a few more games.
And, note to self, start hitting the quote button intsead of the reply button, there seems to be people out there who just love to tick others off with stupidity then go back and edit their posts so it looks like the other guy's a nutcase.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 25, 2010 - 2:08AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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One thing that does seem clear is that EH went through multiple revisions. Bits of it are written like it's a primary origin, some of it even looks like it's intended to be a sole origin, the powers look like they were written for an origin without a specific associated stat. It all holds together, mechanically, but it really looks like it gave them a lot of trouble.  The specific rule, again is: "You gain a +2 bonus to overcharge rolls on Alpha powers that have the same power source as your primary origin."
And Engineered Human, an origin that per the default rules can only be a secondary, and moreover both specifically has no power source AND still specifically provides a +2 bonus to ALL overcharge rolls is an exception to the rule.
Sure, the EH overcharge bonus overides the "same power source" part of that rule. It doesn't overide the "primary origin" part. To get it to do so, you have to assume that an EH can /never/ be primary. Since two of the three suggested alternate origin generation methods do allow for an EH primary, that assumption would be incorrect.
Would they print an ability that has no chance whatsoever of being able to be used in any way, shape or form if you are actually following the rules as written (as opposed to following an optional sidebar rule which reads as a description of a common houserule to implement if someone WISHES not to follow the rules as written and the GM agrees, thus its relegation to sidebar status)?
Yes, they would put in rules that function only when an 'optional' rule is exercised. For instance, there are rules for what to do with or without player decks, because buying boosters to build player decks is 'optional.' It would be foolish to present an 'option' that wouldn't work without furhter house rules, afterall.
For that matter, given the exception-based design philosophy, it would make sense to include rules that would never aply - but /might/ come into play as the result of some other exception...
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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3 years ago ::
Oct 25, 2010 - 6:36AM
#56
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Gonna break this down some.
1. @WiltChamberlin: When discussiong rules we can only discuss the RAW. "But you can house rule", while a true statement, defeats discussion. There are to me possible house rules to discuss them all, so when rules are discussed it has to be by the RAW.
2. If they had not put any text for EH's overcharge, then it would have left a lot of questions for those who pick origins. It is there for people using the chicken rule, or other house rules (like mine for EH becoming primary instead of secondary).
3. For exception based design to take place an entry must outright contradict the other rules. If EH does not say it gives a bonus as a secondary origin, then it does not provide a bonus as a secondary origin, unless you house rule it so.
4. Eh is no more rare than any other secondary origin statistically. You have a 1/20 chance of rolling any given origin, and 1 of those 20 is your primary which becomes EH. You have a 1/20 of getting Eh as your secondary origin. You have a 1/400 chance of any specific Combination with EH, same as any other specific combination of origins.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 31, 2010 - 1:37PM
#57
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2004
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The sidebar on Choosing your Origin (p 35) clearly indicates that this method of character creation falls into the realm of GM fiat ("...ask your Game Master if you can pick origins.") which makes it, by nature of being DM fiat/Rule 0, houseruled.
It's not RAW, it is an invitiation to house-rule, if you are unhappy with the character creation options in front of you, and your GM agrees.
So, it follows that as the only method to get EH as your primary origin is through GM fiat/Rule 0/House-rule, you cannot, by RAW, get EH as primary.
How EH interacts with your primary origin is a seperate topic.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 31, 2010 - 2:57PM
#58
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2008
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The sidebar on Choosing your Origin (p 35) clearly indicates that this method of character creation falls into the realm of GM fiat ("...ask your Game Master if you can pick origins.") which makes it, by nature of being DM fiat/Rule 0, houseruled.
It's not RAW, it is an invitiation to house-rule, if you are unhappy with the character creation options in front of you, and your GM agrees.
So, it follows that as the only method to get EH as your primary origin is through GM fiat/Rule 0/House-rule, you cannot, by RAW, get EH as primary.
How EH interacts with your primary origin is a seperate topic.
Precisely. The sidebar "chicken rule" is the optional rule, it is not a core rule. The entirety of the rules text save the "chicken rule" sidebar appears to be written under the assumption that you'll be using the RAW, randomly-generated characters.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 31, 2010 - 5:02PM
#59
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2009
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My reading of RAW is that a a primary X and secondary Engineered Human is getting the +2 to overcharge from page 34 for Origin X and the +2 to all overcharges from Engineered Human. Because page 34 is talking about power sources it has nothing to do with Engineered Humans because they don't have a power source.
If you choose Engineered Human as your primary with the optional chicken rules, you don't get the p34 bonus as you have no power source. Instead, you'd get the +2 to all from Engineered Human and nothing from your secondary.
I believe that the origins that have power sources have the line about +2 as a reminder of page 34. Engineered Human on the other hand, can't have a +2 there as a reminder about page 34 because the Engineered Human doesn't get a power source and thus doesn't use that rule. They have their own special rule that gives +2 to all overcharges. As they have no power source, unlike the other origins, the +2 line can't simply be a duplicated reminder like it is for the others.
One thing I think Tony is correct about is that this is the result of the Engineered Human going through a changing development process. Until I see an errata saying otherwise, a rolled origin character who is in engineered human is going to have a +4 to the power source of their primary (+2 from p34/reminder text and +2 from engineered human) and +2 to the other power sources (+2 from engineered human trait).
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3 years ago ::
Oct 31, 2010 - 5:33PM
#60
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I think what I'll be doing for games I run is make it that when you roll both origins the same, your *primary* origin becomes EH, and your secondary is what you rolled. It results in a one word change to the RAW (arguably one word that could easily have been mistyped/edited) and makes everything make a lot more sense to me.
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