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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 7:39AM
#41
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Date Joined:
Feb 27, 2009
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I see your point, but if you teleport from a square (or two squares if you have shiftet back one square after the charge) in front of the opponent to a square behind the opponent and become hidden as part of that process - is it given that the opponent knows where you are?
You do not become hidden until the *end* of your move. Up until that point, every enemy and ally knows exactly where you are at all times, even if you are invisible (not inaudible, leaving footprints, etc.). Once you become Hidden, the enemy no longer knows what square you're currently in, and only knows what square you were in last before you became hidden. However, if you do not *move* from the last square you were in, it stands to reason that the first place the enemy would try to expose you is the last square that it knew you were in.
--S
Well, if you teleport from square A to square B and make a stealth check to become hidden (and succeeds) at the end of that movement I would still argue that it would be hard for the opponent to know where you've gone (assuming that you are not detectable during the teleport itself).
You could perhaps reason that you first make the teleport to square B, become visible there, and then make the stealth check. I would accept the former interpretation, but I might be biased 
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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 8:40AM
#42
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2006
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Well, if you teleport from square A to square B and make a stealth check to become hidden (and succeeds) at the end of that movement I would still argue that it would be hard for the opponent to know where you've gone (assuming that you are not detectable during the teleport itself).
You could perhaps reason that you first make the teleport to square B, become visible there, and then make the stealth check.
I would accept the former interpretation, but I might be biased
You could argue that way, but that's not RAW. The current stealth rules state:
Stealth: The check is usually at the end of a move action, but it can be at the end of any of the creature’s actions that involve the creature moving.
It happens at the end. Not during, not at the beginning. End. Unless something says you can become hidden at the beginning of the action, you don't get to be hidden until the end. No matter what sort of fancy way you describe it, that's how the rules work. I don't think it makes sense that they made hover essentially worthless, or that a slowed monster can still use a flyby attack to shift 10 squares, or any number of other weird rules stated, but that's just an opinion. The game doesn't have to make sense physically (people fall at constant rates before reaching terminal velocity? Weird.), it just has to make sense internally.
The enemy does not lose track of exactly where you are at all times until you become hidden. Then it only knows the last square you were in. If you happen to still be there, then it's not as good a situation for you.
--S
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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 10:33AM
#43
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2005
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Todays errata completely altered cunning sneak to work the way this build originally wanted it to work.
Cunning SneakPage 56: In the second paragraph of the feature, replace “a move action” with “your movement.” This change updates the feature to reflect recent revisions in the Stealth rules. If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.
Thought it was worth a mention.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 10:39AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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Todays errata completely altered cunning sneak to work the way this build originally wanted it to work.
Cunning SneakPage 56: In the second paragraph of the feature,replace “a move action” with “your movement.” Thischange updates the feature to reflect recent revisionsin the Stealth rules.If you end your movement at least 3 squares awayfrom your starting position, you can make a Stealthcheck to become hidden if you have any concealmentor any cover, except for cover provided by interveningallies.
Thought it was worth a mention.
Seetan, I want to buy you a drink. WOOT!!!!!  (incoming revised build)
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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 10:49AM
#45
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Try and add harlequin style if you don't already have it.
Gives you move 3 on deft strike aka you can stealth check right before attacking.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 11:01AM
#46
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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Unfortunately Deft Strike won't work quite like that with stealth. The rules for stealth clearly specify that the check to become hidden happens at the end of any of your actions that involve him or her moving (Rules Compendium, p. 152). So you won't gain the benefits of hidden till after that action is completed. The nice thing with Acrobatic Strike is that with his shift boosts, he can shift 3 before or after the attack and become hidden at the end even in heroic.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 11:08AM
#47
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Unfortunately Deft Strike won't work quite like that with stealth. The rules for stealth clearly specify that the check to become hidden happens at the end of any of your actions that involve him or her moving (Rules Compendium, p. 152). So you won't gain the benefits of hidden till after that action is completed. The nice thing with Acrobatic Strike is that with his shift boosts, he can shift 3 before or after the attack and become hidden at the end even in heroic.
As we have argued in IRC; the new rules change this. Have you moved at least 3 squares away by some form of movement? Do you have concealment or cover at the end of this movement? If yes to both you then make a stealth check. You can make no actions in the middle of actions.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 11:14AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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As we have argued in IRC; the new rules change this. Have you moved at least 3 squares away by some form of movement? Do you have concealment or cover at the end of this movement? If yes to both you then make a stealth check. You can make no actions in the middle of actions.
Ok, I can see that reading. I'm unsure what you mean however by your last statement that you can make no actions in the middle of actions. To what are you referring?
Edit: For my purposes, I believe I'll take the more conservative reading of the new Cunning Sneak rules (ie. that the stealth check still has to be made at the end of the action), as I think that was probably the intent.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 3:44PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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I'm currently struggling with the following choice: (1) Badge of the Berserker (no OA's on a charge) + Battle Spirit Weapon (insubstantial on a charge) + Strikebacks + White Lotus Riposte feat OR(2) Tigerclaw Gauntlets (+2 speed on a charge) + Cloak of Displacement (+2 AC/Reflex till hit) + Repel Charge feat Discussion: With a shift after a charge + a regular move, I can end up outside of 6 squares away from my opponent. The extra charge speed offered by Tigerclaw Gauntlets allows me to reach my opponent (barring conflicting movement on his part). If I start 7-9 squares away from my opponent after I charge him, unless he has a range attack or gets distracted by another of my allies, he's likely to charge me in return. Unfortunately, because Tigerclaw Gauntlets take up a hands slot, I can't also have Strikebacks. I'm thinking it's probably best if I move away from the Incisive Dagger as my offhand weapon, given extra teleport distance doesn't seem to have any further synergy with the build at this point. I'd love to hear feedback on this quandary  . Note: at Level 22, I'd be able to afford the Quickening Waters Boon (+2 speed). However, I'm unsure what the standard is for builds on this forum. Are boons considered fair game for including in the makeup, or are they considered DM perogative territory?
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3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 5:34PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2006
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I've found that the vast majority of the time you're not going to incur any opportunity attacks by shifting and charging a target. It might seem a little scary charging through a bunch of brutes/soldiers to get at the one controller/artillery/leader type target, but in actuality, you likely won't have to deal with that sort of situation especially since you can shift several squares immediately afterwards. The badge of the berserker actually ends up being useful much less often than you'd think.
--S
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