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Switch to Forum Live View The Instinctive Summoner - A Super Tough Dwarven Summoner
3 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2010 - 7:55PM #21
obtusehobbit
Date Joined: Feb 3, 2006
Posts: 524
The thing about it is that the effects happen each round with out you spending a single action. Which while there effect is not as powerful as the examples you give they last for a longer period of time.

Given the builds defense combined with the grab attacks accuracy the target I sick my crocodile on is pretty much immoblized for the entire encounter until they kill the croc or are killed by the croc. Now the best way to use this is to hit a target that is seperated and basicly keep them isolated from your allies. That is an enemy that is taken out of an entire encounter of combat with a single spell. Elder Pack Wolf does something similar by knocking a target prone and keeping them prone.

As for shifting away your are right they can, but that contoller over them as they have to shift away instead of move this limits the range they can potentially move in a given round. From a tactical perspective you can also be a wall of sorts putting yourself into a position where the enemies have to move around you to get to your allies or engage you either way you have limited their options.

The difference is consistency of control, while your daily can throw down some serious debuff on a save ends bases (Roughly 1-2 rounds) summons throw down minor control (and in some cases major control) for an entire encounter. Also each time an enemy attacks a summon you have done more control as you are having the enemy waste resources by attacking your summon.

Either way you are exerting control over the enemy. Now admittedly it is not hard control but then it is something you can potentially do each round. That is where the builds tactics shine not in their shear power but their consitency and the multiple ways it has to control, and its ability to easily adapt to a situation.

As for Wildshaping this build doesn't use it, and if I find out that I can use wild shape and command I can reincorprate a constant 11 regen while bloodied which will more then make up for the loss of +1 AC and Reflex.

Overall in actually play I think this build can definatly hold its own and is a great addition to any party being able to mix things up and hinder the enemies tactics in a variaty of ways each and every round. It takes a bit more skill and tactical know how to work, but the abilities add up to a combination of things then when used correctly create a powerful controller.
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2010 - 8:07PM #22
Alanlichen
Date Joined: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 377
Enemies don't even need to spontaneously attack your summons. Due to its low defense and HP issue, a few AOE/multiattacks with some aura could easily make it disappear.

And yes, 1 or 2 turns stun is soooo better in a party where the striker and leader could finish things off fast and clean. If there is only 1 or 2 opponent in the group have the ability to inflict massive damage or notorious effects, then one summon might be enough. But once that number rises to 3 or more, which happens so often after paragon, it would not be suffice at all to have 1 merely grabbed or prone, because they could still do what they are intended to do: handing out horrifying conditions that paralyse your whole party.

As I said, if you go front line, you would be an easy target for the enemies if their initial intention is you (which does not make a difference anyway) due to your low defense or someone else in the front line, around whom they would have already clustered (which again would not make any difference).
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2010 - 8:35PM #23
obtusehobbit
Date Joined: Feb 3, 2006
Posts: 524
What do you mean low defense? The builds level 30 defense are

AC 48 Fort 50 Ref 45 Will 51
HP 220 Surges 18, and Surge Value 64

These are better defense then some defenders and thanks to staff expertise I don't provoke OA for using my implement powers in melee. The high defense and HP are a theme with in the build and by mid heroic you are sporting defender level defenses.

Meaning its summons defense are the same and they have 110 HP and due to my class features and my summoners staff they are regaining 9 HP each round and 11 temp HP each time they are missed. So unlike other summoners these are no push overs, and I am no push over.

I will say in some situation that stun and dominate are better as strong and temporary control but at the same time in other situation with longer more drawn out combats this build will shine. I have played under DMs who do both on a consistent bases. Now while the build is not as effective in short combat he still holds his wieght and doesn't expend party resources to be effective while filling any minion killing and generating some nice focus fire damage with the summons.

It is different styles overall I don't think any one of them is more powerful in actually play then a wizard they are just different. This build gives up some hard control power for a some consistent soft controller and some very nice durability.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2010 - 9:12PM #24
Squad
Date Joined: Sep 16, 2008
Posts: 507

Sep 21, 2010 -- 7:55PM, obtusehobbit wrote:

The thing about it is that the effects happen each round with out you spending a single action. Which while there effect is not as powerful as the examples you give they last for a longer period of time.



This is where the comparison of summons to zones becomes relevant, since zones can also remain for an entire encounter.

Your defense of druid summons still hasn't addressed why a guardian druid trying to maximize control should go the summoning route for all the dailies.

You keep Summon Crocodile merely for the grab attack, when at 25th level you could have replaced it with Primal Storm - which is a Burst 4 AOE with a Range of 20 squares, that only targets enemies, does damage and knocks prone, and gives you a zone that can allow you to keep a prone enemy from standing up.  Even if the initial attack fails to knock an enemy prone, do you know how many ways as a guardian druid you can pull off forced movement + prone attacks (especially if you're using polearm momentum)?  Are you seriously suggesting that this build is better off keeping Summon Crocodile?

I understand if you want to build a summon only theme, but as I said before that's lessening your control rather than increasing it. 

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2010 - 9:26PM #25
ppaladin123
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Feb 21, 2008
Posts: 1,572
Did you see the Heir of Siberys Epic destiny? With Mark of Handling you get a daily encounter-long utility that gives you an extra standard action each round that you can use to command a summoned creature. That might be useful.
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2010 - 9:47PM #26
obtusehobbit
Date Joined: Feb 3, 2006
Posts: 524
I have said that my hard control is not as solid as other controllers, my point is that their are other ways to control just putting an extra body out on the field can help with control. I am defending the fact that summons can be a powerful tool for controler, not only via their effects but by putting another body on the field and giving you an action advantage over you enemies by effectively giving you more action a turn.

As for their possibly being better options there may be but this is a summoner build and has focused on that aspect. The other aspect is that my summons attacks are more accurate so their effects are more likely to take effect (+3/+5 to hit over other powers).  

As for the polearm momentum build I do have a build that uses that option, but generally I find it bad in the current enviroment with all the item rules changing going on as it is highly item dependent build. Though I am working on a none item dependent version, but it currently has some MAD issues I am trying to iron out.

I do understand their are some other option out there that can be really powerful but that is not the point of this build, and I think that the summons in a real game can be really powerful tools for a variaty of reasons. I believe this build is an excellent addition to any party and can really help out as a controller in a variaty of ways. It is a bit harder to measure then some other builds that is true but having played summoners in pretty much every edition including 4e I have found them to be highly verstile tools in any spell casters bag of tricks.

On another note: I am in the process of updating the build utilizing some wild shape powers which provide better control effects. This will reduce the builds Ranged capabilities but enhance its overall control aspects.

Edit: As to primal storm it is not action free, while yes it can be sustained (minor action), and has an effect that is useable each round (OA action). Meanwhile summons are action free when using instinctive actions. So while similar the Summons come out on top as far as action advantage go.

@ppaladin123

The build actually doesn't direct its summons that often the idea is to get an action advantage by using the instinctive action of you summons to have them do their own thing while you do yours. This is effectively giving you an extra standard action each round with some soft to hard control attached as using your abilities you are able to easily position the summons where they can do the most damage.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2010 - 2:02AM #27
Squad
Date Joined: Sep 16, 2008
Posts: 507
You did answer a lot of my questions/concerns - including just the fact that you want this to be a pure summoner build.  I still don't understand this line of reasoning though:

Sep 21, 2010 -- 9:47PM, obtusehobbit wrote:

Edit: As to primal storm it is not action free, while yes it can be sustained (minor action), and has an effect that is useable each round (OA action). Meanwhile summons are action free when using instinctive actions. So while similar the Summons come out on top as far as action advantage go.



Of course I will grant that Summon Crocodile is action free when using instinctive actions relative to the minor action required to sustain Primal Storm.  That's one rather minor point in favor of the Summon - it's minor because with Quick Wild Shape the Druid isn't really using minor actions for anything else (though you do have to worry about getting dazed/stunned).  Other than that, Primal Storm is way better on a number of fronts that I already mentioned, which is why the reference to a trivial amount of action advantage doesn't really provide a good explanation for the choice of Summon Crocodile over Primal Storm.

The only case I can see for a Summon over Primal Storm is for DPR, since the Crocodile can attack multiple times, where the zone attack for Primal Storm deals no additional damage.  But what I keep finding baffling is that you don't defend the summon choice from this angle.  Furthermore, if you really want a Summon for this slot - go Writhing Henge!  It's brutal!

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2010 - 9:29AM #28
obtusehobbit
Date Joined: Feb 3, 2006
Posts: 524
I have actually talked about the summons as a DPR tool with the concept of focus fire (aka multiple attacks against a single target or multiple targets). As for what I can do with my minor action that is actually quite a bit, by level 30 I can use it to shift, or power many of my utilities. second wind to heal, if need be command my summons, etc. There is alot you can do with minors besides wild shaping and so long as primal storm is active it is harder to do those things.

As for Writhing Henge I actually missed that summon power and will be adding it to the build as another summon with a control option though I think that I will drop the guardian briar for it as the crocodile is still a powerful control tool in all tiers of play, via the combo of oak skewer/windstorm, and then isolated grab to keep the target out of combat range for multiple turns.

I am not trying to be a pain or sound stuborn, I am just trying to explain that I believe summons can be a nice control tool, and can bring alot to the table as the issue of their effectiveness was raised. I have said that by the numbers their hard control is less, but they have other things going for them, and the point of this build is to capatilize on those things along with what control they bring.

To summarize the things that make the summons a nice tool, are action advantage, consistent encounter long ability, high accuracy, putting an extra body on the field (aka numbers advantage), ability to focus fire for strong DPR and stacking soft control, abilty if need be spread fire for multi target hinderance, and a few other things that are hard to quantify in a non play enviroment.

Anyways thanks for the find of Writhing Hedge it is a really nice tool in this builds bag of tricks.

On another note after playing around with it I actually don't think I will be using the wild shape stuff for this build. I find that that ability to mix things up at range and in melee that the current version has is an invaluable tool in actual play.



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3 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2010 - 9:53AM #29
Alanlichen
Date Joined: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 377
Writhing Henge is a powerful daily but that is like the only one. You keep arguing summons are nice control without even considering how ridiculous hard control would be in Epic (combined with optimized strikers and leaders), not to mention how important  they are in Heroic and Paragon tier. Summons are nice not because they excercise good control among all the controllers. They are nice within certain criteria, as I said, like in a "not so optimized" or "easy" game where there are only 1 or 2 dangerous enemies per encounter, they would function well.  However, the more intelligent the opponent becomes and the more the DM raises the difficult level, soft control would not suffice. It is not reasonable to argue something is "nice" without even taking consideration of what is not "nice" and what is so much"nicer". I can argue that certain druid builds are good, but only to the limit that they are good within the"Druid" category. If you extend the comparison to "all other controllers", it is so often the case that even a good druid build could hardly compare to one of them (at least before lv 16. In fact they have some very powerful hard control powers after that. But before you reach that level, they even cannot exceed clerics), except ordinary seeker builds, maybe. And I don't think there is any point in insisting the build is good for overall purpose unless the DM has specified the controller can only be a Druid.

It is not to say I do not appreciate this build. It is good within a certain criteria, like that of within the category of "Guardian Druid", or "Summoners Overall" (Even then there is radiant Invoker summoner, and their summons could actually flank and make OA at least, or some wizards summons). But beyond that, I still keey my doubt regarding its effectiveness.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2010 - 10:30AM #30
obtusehobbit
Date Joined: Feb 3, 2006
Posts: 524

I disagree I have stated my point as to what the build does, where its weakness lie (straight hard control), and where its strengths lie (durability, action advantage, numbers advantage, Stacking Soft Control). I will admit that it is different kinda controller and that it is not for everyone but in many situation and in many games this build is an excellent party addition.

For example take a party with mostly ranged combatants, the builds ability to put out a melee summon and go into melee itself can go along way to establishing a front line for the party. Leaving the other party members free to do their thing, and since the build can throw ranged itself while in melee it can actually help with the focus fire of the rest of the party. Meanwhile it is putting down some nice soft control (Possibly multiple forms of soft control) to further enhance the parties tactics and hinder the enemies.

As for not taking other things into consideration I believe I have addressed what other controllers do multiple times. From other druid powers to other controllers abilties and compared where I think the druid come up lacking and where it shines. 

My point is that the builds overall abitlies when combined together, Summons, Encounters, Feats, Defense, etc add up to something that is actually quite effective, and while the individual parts may be weaker then some other things out their total package is quite strong. The idea here is synergy of abilities creatiing a whole that is greater then the individual parts.

At this point there is nothing more I can say on the subject. If you don't like it don't play it but from my testing having played summoners, and having played more traditional controllers I find that they are comparable in an actual game enviroment with optmized party members. They bring different things to the table sure, but then every PC brings something different.



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