If it is a new build, I would expect it to be an E-build. I'm thinking the Ossassin is dead. Unless, like I said earlier, they plan on remaking the Ossassin from the ground up.
I agree. How is that any different from what I said? There would be three assassin subclasses:
1) Ossassin, two builds (nighstalker, bleak disciple) 2) Executioner, two builds (I forget the names) 3) HoSassin
Much as there are presently three Ranger subclasses and three Fighter subclasses. I don't see that as being a problem.
Frankly, What I hope to see in the HoSassin is a new assassin subclass leaning more towards the shadowdancer or shadowcaster themes of the original but with more streamlined and functional mechanics. What I'd love but don't even dare to hope for is a reprint of the original class with revised mechanics that make it able to function on the tabletop. What I expect, but don't want to see is just a copy-paste reprint of the executioner to fill blank page space caused by the shift to the larger hardcover format.
If it is a new build, I would expect it to be an E-build. I'm thinking the Ossassin is dead. Unless, like I said earlier, they plan on remaking the Ossassin from the ground up.
I agree. How is that any different from what I said? There would be three assassin subclasses:
1) Ossassin, two builds (nighstalker, bleak disciple) 2) Executioner, two builds (I forget the names) 3) HoSassin
Much as there are presently three Ranger subclasses and three Fighter subclasses. I don't see that as being a problem.
Frankly, What I hope to see in the HoSassin is a new assassin subclass leaning more towards the shadowdancer or shadowcaster themes of the original but with more streamlined and functional mechanics. What I'd love but don't even dare to hope for is a reprint of the original class with revised mechanics that make it able to function on the tabletop. What I expect, but don't want to see is just a copy-paste reprint of the executioner to fill blank page space caused by the shift to the larger hardcover format.
It would be a travesty if they just reprinted the Executioner (not that I wouldn't mind actually having it in print and not just existing in virtual space on my computer.)
Similar to what you want, I'm really hoping for a new Essentials-style Assassin sub-class... Call it the Shadowcaster or something along those lines and treat as an update/revision to the Assassin that originally appeared in Dragon.
One of my players is currently playing an Executioner, and while he does like it (and is having a fun time roleplaying him,) the class isn't nearly as much his cup of tea as it is mine. He misses the fully-Shadow Assassin (and was a big fan of the Shade Form ability and the Inescapable Blade power.)
Although something I think would be neat is instead of the Inescapable Blade they would instead get a Shadow Minion that would allow you to essentially make melee attacks from a short distance away.
I'd also like to see the Shrouds get replaced by something better. I really felt that as Strikers go, it was quite difficult for them to actually get their Striker damage. The player I mentioned who had played an Assassin before always had the complaint that he'd put a Shroud or two on someone while attacking for pitiful damage (compared to other strikers)... and then someone else in the part would kill the enemy. It was very rare for him to actually inflict his Shroud damage on someone to much effect.
Also, thank you Malisteen for explaining more about the post-Heroic tier Assassin.
Maybe they actually saw the outcry after these releases. They pushed the book back another month. Hopefully, they use that extra time to fix some stuff.
Hopefully they change vampire to a race template that you slap onto another race kinda like the hybrid classes except for races. You know, you pick either one or the others ability bonuses, you pick one or the others feature, defense bonuses, etc etc...
Then tack on the option of taking race powers instead of class powers at specific levels and you would have everything a vampire is in that package...
Well, technically if it's a class you do sort of just slap it onto your race. Not saying a race template wouldn't work; just that vampire as a class sort of creates the same effect that any race can become one, doesn't it?
Woo a new class! Vindication your name is vampire apparently. (Wizards any chance you guys need a theasaurus or something?) So see sky is falling folks, you get your new classes and new support while getting even more support by getting new subclasses. Yay for win/wins!
Plus we already have evidence like the above of vampires functioning as heroes and saving the day. What says class more than that?
As for the Vampire, I'm hoping that they're very steeped in the Shadow power source (because anything else would be lame and wouldn't really fit D&D's canon backstory for vampires) and they have at least two different sub-classes. I could easily see lots of classic vampire abilities that would allow them to fit all four roles.
Charming and Dominating your enemies - Controller stronger than most mortals & Blood Drain as a method of getting temp hp - Defender mobility through Shadowdancer-like teleportation and turn-to-mist type powers - Striker healing by way of life force transfer & "shadow" temp hp - Leader
Of course those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure that others could think of a lot of other suitable vampiric powers and abilities for them.
Controller was my first thought, except I don't see much in the way of multi-target attacks. Maybe striker with a controller element focusing on single targets, like charming one enemy to attack when you do and increase your damage. Idk. Or maybe the devs will put some new twist on class role with this class.
"The Dark Gift comes different to us all" in some vampire lore, right? So yeah, I don't know what they'll emphasize. Hm....strength, cunning, guile, charm, mystery, melancholy, blood sucking. So many choices!
Ascribing its most iconic elements to classes form other power sources and leaving it with only the underpowered and undersupported ossassin and a monster in class form would, though.
Seriously, this HoS is like if PHBII had introduced the Primal power source with a nature domain for clerics, a barbarian build for fighters, a seeker build for rangers, a werewolf class, and no druid or shaman.
Or like if PHBIII introduced the Psionic power source with an enchanter build for wizards, a monk build for rogues, a psionic warrior build for swordmages, a mind flayer class, and no psion or ardent.
Or like if my dad ran over my dog while I was at school that one time, and took it to the taxadermist to get stuffed before I got home, and then pretended he was fine and nothing was the matter and I was the one acting weird.
While I'm not ready to criticize the book yet, I do think the above illustrates fairly well the "power source purity" issue (and I mean illustrates the perspective, not destroys all other perspectives). Also, it was funny. Regardless, I am still excited to see the ways they've got for shadow to creep into other classes.
OH also.......they used the word taint (I think it was in the preview). Does anyone think they'll have a Taint mechanic like in Rokugan? Or maybe that old insanity marker or something for Ravenloft? And I have wanted to buy Heroes of Horror for so long but never have......do you think this book will have anything like that stuff in it?
Maybe they actually saw the outcry after these releases. They pushed the book back another month. Hopefully, they use that extra time to fix some stuff.
Hopefully they change vampire to a race template that you slap onto another race kinda like the hybrid classes except for races. You know, you pick either one or the others ability bonuses, you pick one or the others feature, defense bonuses, etc etc...
Then tack on the option of taking race powers instead of class powers at specific levels and you would have everything a vampire is in that package...
Well, technically if it's a class you do sort of just slap it onto your race. Not saying a race template wouldn't work; just that vampire as a class sort of creates the same effect that any race can become one, doesn't it?
Kind of like the Spellscarred class thing in Forgotten Realms. It was more a template, and took a feat if I remember correctly, while this sounds more like a full on class.
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quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
Controller was my first thought, except I don't see much in the way of multi-target attacks. Maybe striker with a controller element focusing on single targets, like charming one enemy to attack when you do and increase your damage. Idk. Or maybe the devs will put some new twist on class role with this class.
"The Dark Gift comes different to us all" in some vampire lore, right? So yeah, I don't know what they'll emphasize. Hm....strength, cunning, guile, charm, mystery, melancholy, blood sucking. So many choices!
My hope is that the Vampire will have the same class format as the other post-Essentials classes. That would allow to have seperate "sub-classes." I think it'd be a crime to try to force all of the various stereotypical vampire powers into a single role just in order to try to keep the old format.
I'm picturing one sub-class that's a controller with lots of charm and dominate type powers and one that's a striker that's more about melee attacks.
Anyway, on Vampires as a race or class, "which is better?", I WOULD have reposted my statement from the 'Death of Shadow" thread, but the computer I'm on won't let me...odd. Anyway, post #380 in that topic, covers points on both sides nicely, if I do say so myself. (and if someone else could quote it and post it here...that would be great).
Finally got around to doing it on my home comp.
Re: Vampires as a race vis a class - There are positive arguments for both and negative arguments against each, and it's impossible to objectively weigh the pros and cons against each other, since they all have their inherent valid points, many of which stem from the fact that vampires are not creatures that reproduce sexually. They reproduce in a fashion that is frankly parasitic, and often subsumes many of the previous traits of the "victims".
Vampires as a race makes sense because it allows a variety of vampires as far as classes, allowing for multiple archetypes of vampires to be represented, such as, a burly vampire who wades into melee, and relishes the spray of blood from enemies, or the vampiric scholar/wizard type who allows allys/minions to go into melee while striking at a distance with spells. And many more in between.
But wait! What about the previous race? Vampire as a race means I lose the flavor of being a dwarf vampire who preferrs to drink from victims with a high blood-alcohol level, or an elf vampire with a keen interest in preventing the encroachment of civilization into an ancient forest he has dwelt in for centuries. Or, "When he's turned into a vampire, he wouldn't just stop being an elf". Well, the "Vampires as a race" method implies that, at least mechanically, the transformation into a vampire is so severe that the traces of the victim's previous race (at least, those that make a mechanical difference), are wiped clean. This is supported by the idea in many forms of vampire fiction that, as vampires age, they become more and more similar, losing those unique racial identifiers (like in Anne Rice novels, for example), and much of the vampire's previous identity (including race and even gender) become less important, even to the vampire itself, that the fact that it is a vampire...as far as its own identity goes, anyway.
This could have been answered mechanically in D&D (had they done Vampires as a race) with a mechanic similar to Revenants, allowing them to qualify for racial feats of the previous race, even though the racial traits of being a vampire have overwritten their birthright ones (such as stat modifiers, racial bonus to poison saves, attack bonus while bloodied, etc.). Although the problem arises with Small races, if the default for the "vampire-as-a-race" is Medium sized.
Vampires as a class makes sense because it allows us to keep those racial traits, and it also correctly portrays the parasitic nature of the vampire transformation, because the previous racial identity of the vampire is apparent in its appearance. Since race is a very important part of a PC's makeup (ESPECIALLY at heroic tier), this allows for as great a variety in vampires as in any other class. It also answers the problem inherent in the "vampire-as-a-race" with Small races. Vampires as a class allows for Small Vampires.
But wait! What about the previous class? Why would a vampire suddenly stop being a wizard/fighter/cleric? Well, lots of reasons. First off, the easiest answer: who said the PC necessarily had levels in a PC class before becoming a vampire? However, some peopls might want backstories of a mortal life that was also an adventurerm and if he did, some classes might have reasons not to work. A Divine class who served Pelor, for example (or the Raven Queen), would certainly be cut off from divine aid after becoming an undead creature. A Bard's preternatural voice might no longer be able to correctly tone in on the music that was the source of her magic. A Sorceror, blood tainted with the curse of vampirism, might no longer be able to call on the power of his bloodline that gave him arcane might. Granted, some classes this reasoning does not work for (Fighters, Rogues, Wizards).
There's also another solution, which is another pro for vampires as a class: Obviously, if you are playing a PC with the vampire class, you are playing a character who has EMBRACED his/her vampiric nature, as opposed to violently seeking a cure. Since that is the case, does it nor follow that the newly turned vampire would have turned away from the trappings of his/her mortal life to embrace the dark powers he/she now wielded? It's entirely possible that, for him/her to even begin to master the new vampiric powers, took such dedication and time that the skills of the previous life became so out-of-practice that the vampire could no longer perform them.
Result: Both sides of the argument have their merits and their downsides. Obviously, to some, being able to be a Vampire Wizard makes more sense and is more appealing conceptually than a Halfling Vampire. And Vice Versa. Some people can more readily accept the idea that Vampirism dominates one's previous racial identity, and thus should be a race. Others want the previous race to be available as a character creation choice, and have a character for whom being a vampire is something they DO, rather than something they ARE.
Which is why Malisteen and I, though usually at odds in our opinions in most things, both agree that Vampire would have worked better as a theme, which would have made both camps pretty happy, because one could be an Eladrin Vampire Wizard, or a Dwarven Vampire Fighter, etc. To us, and those like us, the pros of both sides are pretty keen points. However, both malisteen and myself both realize that themes are powerful, and since they are not (yet) available for core play, introducing vampire PCs as a theme now would not be balanced, and it would have been better served if they released it as a theme in Ravemloft later this year, which would confine it to a campaign setting, like Dark Sun did.
Incidentally, I think WotC looked at all these points, and since they decided not to go with theme, that Vampire Class > Vampire Race. Given only the two options, I can see why they supported class over race. It allows for more variety in the backstories and character of a given Vampire PC, because he could be from any race, and, liek I said, since he's embracing his vampiric powers so thouroughly (enough to pursue an adventuring career that may last 30 levels, anyway), that Vampire as a Class with its own suite of powers was better. It also allows more for character concepts of people that had the adventuring life thrust upon them BECAUSE they were turned into vampires(i.e. they were not members of ANY PC class before being turned).
... except they didn't choose class over race, they did both - since the book also has the 'Vrykola' which is a race of humans 'cursed with the taint of vampirism'.
What I expect we have isn't any particularly deliberate design decision so much as a need to fill extra space in moving from digest to hardcover format, and a vampire class under development for Ravenloft (remember how RL was going to let us play 'werewolves, ghosts, and vampires?) that was on-theme enough to steal for filler.
... except they didn't choose class over race, they did both - since the book also has the 'Vrykola' which is a race of humans 'cursed with the taint of vampirism'.
What I expect we have isn't any particularly deliberate design decision so much as a need to fill extra space in moving from digest to hardcover format, and a vampire class under development for Ravenloft (remember how RL was going to let us play 'werewolves, ghosts, and vampires?) that was on-theme enough to steal for filler.
That just seems unlikely. They probably wouldn't try to squeeze in a class, class feats, powers, etc. into the product. They'd probably just plunk in some quick feats or do some formatting.
Regardless, I am still excited to see the ways they've got for shadow to creep into other classes.
also.......they used the word taint (I think it was in the preview). Does anyone think they'll have a Taint mechanic like in Rokugan? Or maybe that old insanity marker or something for Ravenloft? And I have wanted to buy Heroes of Horror for so long but never have......do you think this book will have anything like that stuff in it?
