Yup, but a fire wielding class was the perfect way to introduce the Elemental power source, like the assassin introduced the shadow power source.
To echo the guy above, no, just no.
Having the Elemental source be nothing more than classes or builds that follow the 4 or 5 element archetypes like Pyromancer is the surest way to kill it like Ki. Elemental as the fundamental building blocks of reality is vastly more open with what you can do with it.
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
Wanting separate classes instead of new builds doesn't seem logical to me.
So your stance is to have the Wizard, Fighter, Cleric and Thief and everything else is a build from those four classes, right?
Silly rabbit, Builds are for power books.
I get where you guys are coming from. The other power sources were in Player's Handbooks, with brand new shiny classes. "We want that for our favorite power source!", you say. But that's your gut talking. What you really want is to be able to play the character concepts that the Shadow power source evokes.
For example, as a player, I want to play a noble. In my mind, a noble grows up learning to wield authority and most physical experience is hunting with other nobles. So I think that he should contribute to combat by providing guidance to other creatures and with ranged attacks. But shucks, there's no class for that. So I might request a brand new Noble class be made just the way I dreamed up. But wait! A new build for the Warlord comes out that uses ranged attacks. Now the mechanics can support my character concept, and all I need to do is re-skin the flavor. I certainly wouldn't call that character a "Warlord" in game, but I get to command and shoot things, so I'm happy.
Thus, if the Necromancer is a Mage build, no worries. The character concept is supported, that's the important thing.
This is also better for the health of the game. We all know the role playing hobby isn't exactly exploding in popularity, and D&D is underperforming as well (just look at canceled miniature support, changes in leadership, constant firings, etc). Is creating a confusing glut of class choices doing the game any favors for bringing in new blood?
Also consider the alternative to Heroes of Shadow. Player's Handbook 4? Do we really think people would buy that? PH3 was lucky it had the Monk class, or it would be even more of an afterthought than it is now. But a slimmer, cheaper, approachable book that adds fun Shadow builds and powers to existing classes, and is approachable by new (Essentials) and old players alike might just be a big seller. So give it a chance, I think we're in for a treat.
Wanting separate classes instead of new builds doesn't seem logical to me.
So your stance is to have the Wizard, Fighter, Cleric and Thief and everything else is a build from those four classes, right?
Silly rabbit, Builds are for power books.
I get where you guys are coming from. The other power sources were in Player's Handbooks, with brand new shiny classes. "We want that for our favorite power source!", you say. But that's your gut talking. What you really want is to be able to play the character concepts that the Shadow power source evokes.
For example, as a player, I want to play a noble. In my mind, a noble grows up learning to wield authority and most physical experience is hunting with other nobles. So I think that he should contribute to combat by providing guidance to other creatures and with ranged attacks. But shucks, there's no class for that. So I might request a brand new Noble class be made just the way I dreamed up. But wait! A new build for the Warlord comes out that uses ranged attacks. Now the mechanics can support my character concept, and all I need to do is re-skin the flavor. I certainly wouldn't call that character a "Warlord" in game, but I get to command and shoot things, so I'm happy.
Thus, if the Necromancer is a Mage build, no worries. The character concept is supported, that's the important thing.
This is also better for the health of the game. We all know the role playing hobby isn't exactly exploding in popularity, and D&D is underperforming as well (just look at canceled miniature support, changes in leadership, constant firings, etc). Is creating a confusing glut of class choices doing the game any favors for bringing in new blood?
Also consider the alternative to Heroes of Shadow. Player's Handbook 4? Do we really think people would buy that? PH3 was lucky it had the Monk class, or it would be even more of an afterthought than it is now. But a slimmer, cheaper, approachable book that adds fun Shadow builds and powers to existing classes, and is approachable by new (Essentials) and old players alike might just be a big seller. So give it a chance, I think we're in for a treat.
But that's advocacy for effectivelly kill the game, you realize. This is a list based game, you have to add onto the list.
First thing... The miniatures is not the fault of the economy, but basic costs compared to before and after the "game" died. (The 2nd edition mini game, not D&D) Before, in 12 pc random packs, you paid 12 bucks for them. Now, for 5 minis, you pay... 12 bucks for them.
This is more for an individual mini with the added bonus of not having a game for them.
They are re-evaluting the minitures, and have not given up on them yet. Look for another set for the Heroscape line in the meantime.
Second, It isn't my gut, it is my expetation that a "new" power source will have new classes. Forget for a second that the Assassin has been in the unprinted DDi for a bit and think for a second. This book is the Player's Guide for the Shadow Power Source. It is more focused on the power source than any other product has been on any previously introduced power source. I expect new classes to take advantage of that power source.
More than likely, it would be three of them, with the Assassin being the number four class in the DDi.
Third, going from having new classes to doing all builds for all future products would kill the game. Period.
Fourth. I still think the PHB4 is gonna come out, possibly in 2012, for the Elemental power source.
I don't want builds for classes from different power sources, that would not be the Shadow power source, that would be a dark aspeck of that class.
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
First thing... The miniatures is not the fault of the economy, but basic costs compared to before and after the "game" died. (The 2nd edition mini game, not D&D) Before, in 12 pc random packs, you paid 12 bucks for them. Now, for 5 minis, you pay... 12 bucks for them.
This is more for an individual mini with the added bonus of not having a game for them.
They are re-evaluting the minitures, and have not given up on them yet. Look for another set for the Heroscape line in the meantime.
Second, It isn't my gut, it is my expetation that a "new" power source will have new classes. Forget for a second that the Assassin has been in the unprinted DDi for a bit and think for a second. This book is the Player's Guide for the Shadow Power Source. It is more focused on the power source than any other product has been on any previously introduced power source. I expect new classes to take advantage of that power source.
More than likely, it would be three of them, with the Assassin being the number four class in the DDi.
Third, going from having new classes to doing all builds for all future products would kill the game. Period.
Fourth. I still think the PHB4 is gonna come out, possibly in 2012, for the Elemental power source.
I don't want builds for classes from different power sources, that would not be the Shadow power source, that would be a dark aspeck of that class.
First thing... The miniatures is not the fault of the economy, but basic costs compared to before and after the "game" died. (The 2nd edition mini game, not D&D) Before, in 12 pc random packs, you paid 12 bucks for them. Now, for 5 minis, you pay... 12 bucks for them.
This is more for an individual mini with the added bonus of not having a game for them.
They are re-evaluting the minitures, and have not given up on them yet. Look for another set for the Heroscape line in the meantime.
Second, It isn't my gut, it is my expetation that a "new" power source will have new classes. Forget for a second that the Assassin has been in the unprinted DDi for a bit and think for a second. This book is the Player's Guide for the Shadow Power Source. It is more focused on the power source than any other product has been on any previously introduced power source. I expect new classes to take advantage of that power source.
More than likely, it would be three of them, with the Assassin being the number four class in the DDi.
Third, going from having new classes to doing all builds for all future products would kill the game. Period.
Fourth. I still think the PHB4 is gonna come out, possibly in 2012, for the Elemental power source.
I don't want builds for classes from different power sources, that would not be the Shadow power source, that would be a dark aspeck of that class.
Doing builds instead of new classes for distinct concepts and archetypes, especially when that archetype is as wide and as strong as the entire shadow power source, doesn't make things simpler and it doesn't make things more compatible. Instead it muddies the thematic waters, dilutes the narrative value of 'class' and 'power source' to the point that they lose all meaning, makes classes confusing rather then iconic, and either leaves distinct concepts without appropriate mechanical backing or introduces intra-class inaccessability or balance issues by forcing entirely distinct mechanics to coexist under the same roof.
Look, I agree that 'Runepriest' wasn't a distinct enough concept to warrant its own class. Ditto Seeker, and probably a few other classes as well. But just because some classes were printed that probably shouldn't have been, doesn't mean that other archetypes that are conceptually distinct enough to warrant their own classes shouldn't get them.
A "necromancer" that is just a wizard, with the same old wizard powers, only with spooky flavor text and the 'shadow' keyword simply doesn't cut it. If that was good enough, there wouldn't be any need for a necromancer in the first place - even as a build.
And the Shadow power source is extremely compelling as an idea - more narratively solid then any other power source barring maybe divine. We know what kinds of powers and classes fit the theme, we know where they draw their power from, and how they access it, and it's all fun interesting stuff.
If Heroes of Shadow rolls around without actual Shadow Classes in it, then it will simply have failed to deliver. Those who wanted the book in the first place will be dissapointed with the unnecessarily watered down result, and a real opportunity will have been missed.
And, as I've said several times, Shadow is so solid, so distinct a concept that full shadow classes practically write themselves. Dark Knight, Necromancer, Shadowcaster, Shadowdancer (which became the ossassin), These are classic archetypes that easily warrant their own classes beyond 'spooky paladin' and 'spooky wizard'. WotC can release all the 'spooky wizard' builds they want, and people will still be dissapointed, waiting for an actual 4e necromancer to arrive.
Ok I've been watching this board for a few years and I learned something: The pessimists and the optimists have one thing in common. They're both always wrong.
Look the essentials products are labeled as such and HoS does not have that label. Worst case we're gonna get shadow builds of existing classes not essentials style sub-classes.
Now the text mentions classes, meaning more than one, so even if they reprint assassin (seems unlikely) we're gonna get one new class minimum.
Odds are we're looking at a controller (necromancer), a defender (the use of hexblade is most likely just an unfortunate convergence of nomenclature), and I'm not at all sure what we can expect for striker seeing as WoTC is being weird about the assassin. Shadow doesn't seem like a good power source for healing so probably no primary leader class.
Hopefully we can nab a few new themes as well, because lets face it the Themes in Athas just aren't enough.
Going back to the essentials for a bit: Essentials is in no way the future of 4e. Sure a few feats get tweaked, so what? the feat chapter format makes me want to beat the editing team over the head with the damned book, big deal! Some of the stuff reminds people of 3.5, yeah it sort of does. The Dragon articles are being done with the new format and builds, that's just wizards trying to bring out stuff for the current releases, it's just good timing.
The essentials stuff lacks some important bits to take over 4e: 1.) Multi-classing 2.) Paragon and epic options, once you pick an essentials class you're locked in pretty tight 3.) Backwards compatibility, if wizards was gonna give up on the 25 classes and 28 races they've released for 4e already they'd call it 5e. 4.) Forwards compatibility, again you're in there pretty good any options added later would have to be meticulously balanced and described in order to avoid mangling the essentials progressions. Adding a new epic destiny is potentially doable, but adding new paragon paths for those classes looks almost impossible.
