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Jul 19, 2012 -- 2:56AM, Irennan wrote:

Eilistraee promotes open minded acceptance and understanding of the diversity. In some 2e book it even says that she welcomes all the beings who revel in life and free self-expression, without citing ANY discrimination. So being sexist IS antithetical to what she stands for and to her goal of freeing and opening the drow minds and hearts to a different kind of life (which includes harmony among every being), because it cannot be if sexism and prejudice are present. In fact they would preclude to the gender considered ''lesser'' the freedom of expressing and fulfilling themselves, being them relegated to lesser roles, therefore causing discomfort and bitterness and not happiness and unity. So sexism (in the sense of considering one gender better than the other) from Eilistraee's side wouldn't make any sense, because she -being a deity- can't behave against her own ideas (besides, doing so would be stupid).

Note that I've never said that the Dark Maiden hasn't a gender-selective clergy, but having it=/=sexism. As I said, Eilistraee is intended to be a mother goddess for the whole drow race, so it is likely that having only female priestesses is due to flavor reasons (even tho it is unfitting for what she wants to create).

You have a very one-sided and unilateral view of things.  Eilistraee promotes understanding of diversity in the sense of not judging people for their misdeeds.  This is because she's the patron of the handful of members of an almost unvisersally evil race who have decided not to be evil, and most people will immediately judge drow as evil.  You think that just because she preaches understanding and acceptance in that respect, that she does not have personality and individuality.  You think she must follow some kind of mindless mantra that is a cookie-cutter mold of "person who preaches acceptance".  And a deity can't behave against their portfolio, which is sometimes seperate from their ideals, look to Kelemvor and Mystra for perfect examples of that.  But you can't have a perfect understanding of a deity or the way they work and every aspect of their personality just by looking at their portfolio.  Look at Vhaeraun, Drow Males are listed as a part of his portfolio.  It would make more sense for him to disallow female clergy than it does for Eilistraee to do the inverse.  And yet he doesn't  Granted, female clerics of Vhaeraun are much more rare than the males, but they are by no means prohibited.

Besides only a small percentage of Eilistraee's followers -as in the cult of many deities- are clerics. All the rest, men and women alike, are on the same level and have the same possibilities, and priestesses would accept advices from the ones (no matter what their gender is) who know better than them about the matters involved in their issues, when an important decision has to be taken (and heck, in a 3e sourcebook it is even said that the most groups of followers of the Dark Maiden have no hierarchy).

About physical labor and foot soldiers, women followers of the Dark Maiden are charged with those activities, just like men, with no exception (priestess must even go on regular patrols to help and feed the ones in need, and they must take care of their tools and of the structures used as sanctuaries), and some of the latter (like Elkantar) can even get to occupy positions who put them above priestesses in the ''chain of command'' (as much as such a thing is present among the free-spirited Eilistraeeans). Mind you tho, I don't like this aspect (the priestesses only thingy) of her as well, as it really prevents her from shining as she could.

Wasn't Elkantar Quilue's lover or something?  Again, another parallel with Lolthite society, in that a male only gets authority when it's derived from the bedchamber of a ranking priestess.

All of this means that we have some novels contradicting sourcebooks here, because the latter never talked about discrimination or prejudice against the males, setting aside the single gendered clergy (which, again, is likely related to a flavor matter), and -again- I don't see any reason to take the worse version of Eilistraee over the better.

As you said, other books omitted mention of prejudice against males, they did not contradict it.  So you are not taking the "better" version, you are choosing to accept the "incomplete" version.

When the situation is pressing, people with similar immediate goals can easily ally, even if their methods are widely different. Also Vhaeraun's death can easily be a deception or something. I really don't see Eilistraee killing Vhaeraun (yes, she could've defended herself without killing, maybe talking him into an alliance after having defeated him), and Vhaeraun recklessly charging into Eilistraee's plane is not something he would do. And having brother and sister allied would've been infinitely cooler.

You don't see Eilistraee using lethal means?  What Dark Maiden have you been reading about?  She uses a Bastard Sword, advocated hunting, and is perfectly willing to execute any drow unwilling to be redeemed.  She's not some peace-loving, nonviolent hippie like Eldath.  She's a warrior.
And as for Vhaeraun, you've got that twisted, too.  You're so intent on being butthurt about hsi death that you want to go and say it was stupid and didn't make sense for him.  He didn't "charge in recklessly" at all.  You are actually 100% flat wrong in your assertion of that.  Had he done that, then yes, I would say it doesn't make sense.  Because the Masked Lord does not fight fair.  He advocated stealth and assassination, and THAT'S what he did.  He snuck into her realm, with the intent of assassinating her in a surprise attack.  Had he been successful, the result might have been different.  However, he was unaware that Eilistraee had been forwarned of his attack. D&D gods are not omniscient.  And let's face it, in a fair fight, Eilistraee would win.  And Vhaeraun was there to KILL HER.  You think she wouldn't kill in self defense?  She certainly would.  Was she saddened by her brother's death?  Yes, we see that in the second LP book.  She would have preferred to save him, but he didn't want redemption, he wanted to conquer.

Their society isn't much different from the church-dominated Middle Age one (even complete with the ''Burn the Heretic'' idiocy),

Okay, real quick: don't use overly-contyrived hyperbole metaphors regarding historical references you clearly do not have a complete understanding of.  I'm sick and tired of the reactionary parody of history that seems to permeate our society.  I have a history degree, and my college professor was Dr. Paul Crawford, one of the world's leading experts on the Crusades and Middle Ages, so yes, I am telling you FOR A FACT that your metaphor is blatantly incorrect.

with the difference that the drow plot agaisnt each other all day long, to the point of risking self destruction. And the explanation about how such pointless organization has endured the passing of time is... Lolth keeps them at bay with her leash. Bleh, this is pretty much the epitome of submission -and of being spineless-, as Lolth's success depends on the drow and they have the full potential of making her crawl back to her hole. Instead they choose to bow their head (actually they prostrate themselves in fear, besides living in constant fear of each other) and to obey to her dogma to the point of fanaticism and zealotry (and even the few ones who try to subvert the matriarchy actually do so while respecting Lolth's tenets, showing how deep the indoctrination is). As I said, a bunch brainwashed, one-dimensional people, if we consider how they really live (and exclude Eilistraeeans and Vhaerunites). Lame pawns of a deity with ego problems and not at all charismatic villains (I could even pity them, in a sense...), that's what the drow came back to be.

Then you've never used the drow to their potential in a game.  The drow are not fearful, quite the contray, they're arrogant.  And they're bitter.  They believe they have the right to "take back" what was denied them in the Descent.  And they believe they have not only the right, but the power, to do so.

If a deity is valid and flavorful, this alone is a good reason to bring him/her back, and it is always fully possible because a good story can undo anything. And this is really the case of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Besides being awesome deities, unique and standing for meaningful concepts on their own, they have been treated really bad in those novels, and this should be corrected by bringing them back. Not only their demise, but also the unfitting depiction. Vhaeraun was depicted as a reckless fool in his direct assault to his sister, while his modus operandi always involves intrigue and deception. Eilistraee was depicted as sexist and a ''get Lolth'' kind of deity, while she should be a symbol of the opposition to the meaningless injustice inflicted to the Dark Elves and of the hope of redemption, freedom and life for ALL of them. About giving back to the drow their own life, not killing stuff.

Once again, just to reiterate, Vhaeraun was attempting an assassination and NOT a "direct attack".  And Eilistraee did change after the merge, she adopted some of her brother's ruthlessness, and yes, she turned a bit from her normal MO of forgiveness and redemption and became more about "getting Lolth", but that was the change in her from absobing Vhaeraun.  I would go as far as to say that during that period in which she was the Masked Lady, her deific alignment shifted to Chaotic Neutral.  But that's conjecture on my part.

It's not what Eilistraee would do. This is the whole ''unwilling were cast down'' thingy that the Dark Maiden -having as purpose the mothering of ALL the drow race- would never even take in consideration. She can't actually 'redeem' the ones who're already seeking alternatives to Lolth, she can just help and love them. It's the others, the ones still brainwashed (which are the VAST majority of the race), that need her support the most, and to whom the goddess decided to dedicate much effort. So no, the ending doesn't make much sense. E and V demise was wasteful, as none of them achieved any significant progress in their goal with it, neither it brought any significant change to the drow in that sense (the undoing of the descent on the -few- followers of E. was brought by the High Magic ritual, not by the sacrifice of the goddess).

You are underestimating her influence on Quarlynd's actions.  He was one of her Wizard pieces on the sava board.  Granted, all the individuals thought they were acting on their own free will, but it wqas still part of Lolth and Eilistraee's game.  When Catavina killed Selvetarm with the Crescent Blade, it was represented, it was also represented by Eilistraee taking out Lolth's champion piece with her Knight on the sava board.

All of those are very valid reasons to bring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back. And it would make sense from a commercial PoV too, since these two deities have a lot of people who like them much, and who were miffed by the 3.5e era end events about them.

Also, as I said, it has been hinted that they're returning in this upcoming Menzo book. One of the authors said on a fansite board that Eilistraee is coming back, and there's even a map from this book which shows a place in the FeyDark (so, Post-Plague) which, according to what I read there, looks very much like a sort of new home plane for both brother and sister (which seem to be kind of allies now, re-opening the possibility of development for the dichotomy I was talking about above). So yes, we can't be certain until we see the book, but it's likely that they'll be back to the Realms soon (probably not as proper deities, but Archfeys -and I'd be glad of it- still back to action).

Sorry, but the new excerpt article with themes from Menzoberanzan still explicitly states that Vhaeraun is dead post-Spellplague.

 

Or... they could've made him an exarch instead of proposing such a stupid death (seriously, we're talking about -DEITIES- fighting over something like little kids... WTH?!)? You know, some people like Helm and while relegating him into a minor role can be fine, getting rid of things for simplicity sake sucks (and ALL the deities lost with the end of the 3.5e era and with the transition were removed for this reason).

However it looks like they have acknowledged this, because AFAIK Helm's fate is being revised in the Shadowbane novels.

Like I said before, Tyr was unoriginal anyways.  He's literally a cheap imitation of Norse mythology.  If they want to bring back Helm, fine.  But leave Tyr dead.

Aug 21, 2012 -- 10:54PM, DrowElfMorwen wrote:

What's with 5e?

Linktastic link to answer your question.