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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 10:02AM
#51
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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I think you guy's are missing the point of the rule.
Free actions happen as late as reasonably possible.
But Fitz's point is that this isn't what the rule actually says... it restricts them to either occuring technically before the trigger happens or after the trigger is resolved. I think this is good enough, but he's worried that there are times the action really needs to happen in the middle of the trigger resolving.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 10:21AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Nov 14, 2008
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I think you guy's are missing the point of the rule.
Free actions happen as late as reasonably possible.
But Fitz's point is that this isn't what the rule actually says... it restricts them to either occuring technically before the trigger happens or after the trigger is resolved. I think this is good enough, but he's worried that there are times the action really needs to happen in the middle of the trigger resolving.
For Feather Fall:
- Someone pushes me off a cliff.
- A friendly wizard shoots me with Feather Fall. (Trigger: You or one creature in range falls.)
- This cannot be a reaction, or it wouldn't take effect until I splat. Ergo it's an interrupt.
- Rewind time to the moment I fell off the cliff, when I'm hanging in midair, one square out from the edge.
- Feather Fall goes into effect. "The fall" is still the same fall as it ever was. Nothing in Feather Fall's description says it negates the fall, and the effect does not end until the end of the fall.
- "The fall" still happens, regardless of being interrupted. I float safely to the ground.
- The fall is now over, and the effect of Feather Fall ends.
For a re-roll:
- I am a warlock. I attack a rules lawyer with Eldritch Blast. I miss.
- I use Dark One's Own Luck. (Trigger: You make a roll you dislike.)
- This cannot be a reaction, or I'd have to resolve the attack with the bad roll.
- Rewind time to the moment I made the roll.
- I reroll (and "reroll" is a perfectly accecptable term here because in the real world, I did make a first roll -- time is only rewound in the game world).
- The trigger (the original roll) is invalidated by the power. (Interrupts can do this.)
- Time marches on, using the new roll in its place.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 10:26AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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They do? Most of them are Free Actions that I recall.
Second Chance? Displacement? Plenty more show up in the Compendium.
And yes, it's a reroll mechanically if done after a triggering roll, and not if done before. Mechanically, an interrupt occurs before the trigger resolves. So you can't have a reroll of a trigger that is the roll, since the trigger resolving was the first roll.
But yet this mechanic is used all the time, and I don't see anyone confused about it.
Regarding feather fall, you mean there's some other example where the interrupt makes it work badly? I don't see the problem you suggest with feather fall itself.
Any time it takes effect while you aren't falling, interrupting it will cause it to end instantly (since it lasts for the duration of the fall). So if you interrupt the fall in a way that means you weren't falling (which will be most of the time), it'll end, then you'll fall and take full damage.
Still not clear what you're getting at here. You fall. FF triggers as an interrupt, thus the effect takes place before you fall. The effect says "You or the creature takes no damage from the fall, regardless of its distance, and does not fall prone at the end of the fall." How is that ambiguous?
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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 10:51AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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For Feather Fall:
A friendly wizard shoots me with Feather Fall. (Trigger: You or one creature in range falls.)
This cannot be a reaction, or it wouldn't take effect until I splat. Ergo it's an interrupt.
Rewind time to the moment I fell off the cliff, when I'm hanging in midair, one square out from the edge.
If you interrupt the fall, you are still standing on solid ground. Therefore, the feather fall effect ends (since you are no longer falling). Then you fall when you move off solid ground ... and feather fall has already ended.
For a re-roll:
I reroll (and "reroll" is a perfectly accecptable term here because in the real world, I did make a first roll -- time is only rewound in the game world).
I disagree that reroll is an acceptable term. The first roll you made no longer exists mechanically.
I think you guy's are missing the point of the rule.
Free actions happen as late as reasonably possible.
But Fitz's point is that this isn't what the rule actually says... it restricts them to either occuring technically before the trigger happens or after the trigger is resolved. I think this is good enough, but he's worried that there are times the action really needs to happen in the middle of the trigger resolving.
My point is: it restricts them to either occuring technically before the trigger happens or after the triggering action is resolved (with attack/move exceptions). Slight difference there. "As late as reasonably possible" can include the space between before the trigger resolves and after the triggering action resolves.
Some powers which I think *should* be resolved as reactions, as an example:
Flurry of Blows (resolve between hit and damage vs resolve after damage/effects)
Rampage (resolve between critical hit and damage vs resolve after damage/effects)
I like the effect for those two, for example.
Interestingly, I think this means that any Free Action triggered by the attack of a charge is now unusable. Unless the "attack" exception for reactions causes it to resolve between the attack ending and the charge action ending, which it probably does.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 10:58AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Edit - I should think about Fitz's post first.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 11:00AM
#56
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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Aaah, you edited.  I was about to respond. I must say, this discussion is making me more comfortable with the change. You guys are definitely showing me where it is possible to look at some of the free action powers in ways that are feasible to work with the new rule. Edit: It's possible that what really disturbs me is they've closed off a resolution space that previously existed.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 11:11AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Nov 14, 2008
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If you interrupt the fall, you are still standing on solid ground. Therefore, the feather fall effect ends (since you are no longer falling). Then you fall when you move off solid ground ... and feather fall has already ended.
The fall does not begin when you are on solid ground. The fall begins when you are in a square with nothing under you.
If I'm pushed off a cliff, the fall began AFTER the push, not before. You simply cannot talk your way around this fact. The interrupt does not interrupt the action that caused you to be in midair. It interrupts the fall, which is the bit between being 60 feet up and the bit where you're a pancake. The fall does not begin one moment sooner.
I disagree that reroll is an acceptable term. The first roll you made no longer exists mechanically.
Disagreement noted, but your statement makes no sense. The roll happened, period. Until the roll is invalidated by the interrupt, it can even be said to have happened "mechanically," whatever that means. It's not invalidated until AFTER the reroll.
Sometimes we have to use a rules-lawyer version of Occam's Razor: If there are two interpretations of a term and one of them makes the written rule incomprehensible, the other interpretation is the one you should use.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 11:11AM
#58
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- Here be Dragons next 100 km
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For Feather Fall:
A friendly wizard shoots me with Feather Fall. (Trigger: You or one creature in range falls.)
This cannot be a reaction, or it wouldn't take effect until I splat. Ergo it's an interrupt.
Rewind time to the moment I fell off the cliff, when I'm hanging in midair, one square out from the edge.
If you interrupt the fall, you are still standing on solid ground. Therefore, the feather fall effect ends (since you are no longer falling). Then you fall when you move off solid ground ... and feather fall has already ended.
You can't be "no longer falling" if the fall didn't start yet. You're only "no longer falling" after the triggering fall completes.
For a re-roll:
I reroll (and "reroll" is a perfectly accecptable term here because in the real world, I did make a first roll -- time is only rewound in the game world).
I disagree that reroll is an acceptable term. The first roll you made no longer exists mechanically.
Yes it does. You just made the roll, therefore it exists. In the game-world's internal timeline, the attack you rolled hasn't occurred yet, but then, in the game-world's internal timeline, you didn't make a die roll - you swung a sword.
At both the game-mechanical level and the real-world level, that first roll happened in the past, and now you're re-rolling it. It's only within the game-world's timeline that you're re-writing the order of events.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 11:22AM
#59
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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I think Fitz is just being a little stubborn about rerolls and feather fall. In particular for rerolls, immediate interrupt reroll effects have been around since PH1. But maybe there are other more problematic powers. As far as the point about removing design space, it's not clear whether that space was ever intended to be there. I think there is some clarity in the "one action at a time" paradigm, and I could imagine it being better to enforce that where possible at the cost of making some effects a little clunkier than they would be if a free action could occur in the middle of another action. Not that they'e solved that problem entirely.
Interestingly, I think this means that any Free Action triggered by the attack of a charge is now unusable. Unless the "attack" exception for reactions causes it to resolve between the attack ending and the charge action ending, which it probably does.
So what is the issue here? If it is a reaction-type effect, then there shouldn't be any problem, it just occurs after the attack. If it's an interrupt-type effect, it would interrupt the attack but occur after the movement, just like an immediate interrupt would. Compare to Dead Stop for instance.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2010 - 12:37PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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I'll accept the Feather Fall argument, after all it's the same as a reaction occuring in the time between the move/attack and the end of an action (ie for charge and for the swapping positions example from another thread), but in reverse. There is certainly mechanical resolution space between leaving the surface that will cause you to fall and falling, and I can see that the interrupt would place it's resolution in that space.
But on the rerolls, I just can't see the argument. You can only reroll something in reference to something that exists. If you interrupt the original roll, it can't be a reroll, because there is no original roll any more mechanically. Also, if it interrupted, all such powers would automatically cause the new roll to be the only possible roll. There would be no requirement to explcitly state as many of these types of powers do that you must keep the second roll, as that would be the only possible option, and none could allow you to keep the original roll (not sure if any do, but it wouldn't be possible).
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