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3 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2010 - 12:39PM
#261
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I don't think anyone wants DC to be an attack.
As I've said, I think the clarification needed is that "direct damage" needs to become a game term. A zone isn't direct damage and neither is an aftereffect, nor DC's damage. Direct Damage is a Hit, Miss, or Effect line that says "XdY+Z damage" (or just Z).
It's a concept!
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3 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2010 - 1:29PM
#262
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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The "That's what the original developers want!" line is of no relevance. It requires that the originals somehow be more ... goodish... than new things by virtue of originality.
They are more goodish by virtue of being simpler, which makes them both easier to understand for both players and power designers. They don't require a seperate set of components for individual powers released in the future.
The current administration disagrees with you. Work within that-not just referencing the good ol' days.
Why? If something is bad, you don't say "well that's okay, lets make it more broken." You make recommendations on the best way to fix it.
I don't think anyone wants DC to be an attack.
Lots of people have said they are fine with DC being an attack.
As I've said, I think the clarification needed is that "direct damage" needs to become a game term.
That doesn't cover Forms or Summons properly. There are several places the current rules have holes, that's not the only one.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2010 - 1:34PM
#263
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The "That's what the original developers want!" line is of no relevance. It requires that the originals somehow be more ... goodish... than new things by virtue of originality.
They are more goodish by virtue of being simpler, which makes them both easier to understand for both players and power designers. They don't require a seperate set of components for individual powers released in the future.
The current administration disagrees with you. Work within that-not just referencing the good ol' days.
Why? If something is bad, you don't say "well that's okay, lets make it more broken." You make recommendations on the best way to fix it.
I don't think anyone wants DC to be an attack.
Lots of people have said they are fine with DC being an attack.
As I've said, I think the clarification needed is that "direct damage" needs to become a game term.
That doesn't cover Forms or Summons properly. There are several places the current rules have holes, that's not the only one.
A daily attack power that summons a creature is not an attack. Rather, when the summoned creature attacks, it's an attack.
A form power is not an attack. Rather, when you use the form power's attack, it is an attack.
What exactly is missing? Just because "has a target line" is a criteria that makes an attack power an attack doesn't mean that that's the only thing that's an attack.
Long story short, I don't think we need to or want to add "Attack: No attack roll" (or whatever) to every single attack power that's an attack. It's a waste of space and resources and frankly seems quite tacky.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2010 - 1:44PM
#264
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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A daily attack power that summons a creature is not an attack. Rather, when the summoned creature attacks, it's an attack. A form power is not an attack. Rather, when you use the form power's attack, it is an attack.
Why? The definition of an attack in the RC certainly doesn't say that. The FAQ released after the MM uproar doesn't either.
Which is my whole point. Right now, there are not only multiple definitions for an attack, but they apply to different things. A power can be an attack, as (apparently by your claim above that I don't think is specified by the rules) can part of a power, as is an attack roll. This isn't clear, it's a mess. And that is a problem.
What exactly is missing? Just because "has a target line" is a criteria that makes an attack power an attack doesn't mean that that's the only thing that's an attack.
Again, exactly my point.
Long story short, I don't think we need to or want to add "Attack: No attack roll" (or whatever) to every single attack power that's an attack. It's a waste of space and resources and frankly seems quite tacky.
Given the small number of powers that would need this, it's well worth it to lock down exactly what an attack is, when it occurs, and remove the confusion forever.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2010 - 1:54PM
#265
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attack: An attack roll and its effects, including any damage rolls. The word "attack" is sometimes used as shorthand for "attack power." some attack powers include multiple attacks, and some powers, such as magic missile, are designated as attacks yet lack attack rolls (using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target).
So the base definition is an attack roll, and then goes on to say the exceptions-namely Magic Missile and its ilk. That's just the glossary-I forget where in the actual book it describes what an attack is. Ergo, a Summon that makes an attack roll is making an attack.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2010 - 5:18PM
#266
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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That's just the glossary-I forget where in the actual book it describes what an attack is. Ergo, a Summon that makes an attack roll is making an attack.
Yeah, we probably need the actual quote to really continue the debate. It's the thing that mentions targeting, which this one doesn't. I'll see if I can dig it out tonight.
But I think you've finally managed to burn me out for today.  My fire and zeal to correct all which is illogically constructed has dropped to a smoldering ember. I'll try and fan the flames again tomorrow. It's harder than in the old days though, when there was no logic to a single rule in the game. 
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3 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2010 - 5:21PM
#267
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
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My fire and zeal to correct all which is illogically constructed has dropped to a smoldering ember. I'll try and fan the flames again tomorrow.
Let it burn itself out. You'll be happier in the long run. Remember, slavery is freedom.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2010 - 5:53PM
#268
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The rules in the RC are not IFF statements unless they specify such. The fact that the RC Glossary includes the statement that "An attack is an attack roll" means that attack rolls are attacks.
Now, that part doesn't state whether Magic Missile is an attack or not (or it does, but not why). But all I was doing is that pointing out that, why yes-Summon's attacks are indeed attacks.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2010 - 6:55AM
#269
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2003
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...
Yeah, we probably need the actual quote to really continue the debate. It's the thing that mentions targeting, which this one doesn't. ...
You mean, "...using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target..."
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3 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2010 - 10:11AM
#270
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The definition of push seems to have changed. (and probably pull as well).
guides
Show
my builds
Show
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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