|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 8:39AM
#231
|
Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
|
Bear in mind, that would make it a lot more powerful, since you could then add all the riders that apply "on a hit."
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 8:43AM
#232
|
Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
|
True, but not sure how abusable that really is. What does worry me is infinite loops or some such caused by it always hitting.
Maybe a global rule for automatic hit powers that deals with that in some way. Or a global rule for automatic hit powers. (My poor wordsmithing skills will just mangle it, so I'll leave that to others. Plus we haven't clearly defined the potential break-points yet.)
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 8:57AM
#233
|
|
|
I don't see why attacks "have to hit or miss." A lot of bonuses to damage are "on a hit" (even if they're not damage roll related) and having magic missile be a "hit" would trigger those.
I don't see anything wrong with the current system though.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 9:12AM
#234
|
Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
|
I don't see anything wrong with the current system though.
It's a cobbled together mess of exceptions that break the rules all over the place ... provided you insist that autodamage spells must be an attack.
Which is why I think they need to just drop the idea and understand that automatic damage spells with no Attack aren't an attack, and leave it at "Attacks are an Attack line". Clean, simple, doesn't cause many problems (a few powers like commander's strike need to have the attack line removed), and since there isn't any particularly reason to think that autodamage spells must be an attack it shouldn't cause issues.
Either that or make them an automatic hit with an attack roll to determine triggering Hit functions. Something like:
Attack: Automatic Hit (Int vs Ref)
Hit: 2+Int
The rule for automatic hits can be that *if* you want to trigger something determined by a hit (your benefit), you must make the Int vs Ref roll to see if you get that beneficial trigger.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 9:30AM
#235
|
|
|
What "exceptions" are you talking about?
Why does an attack have to be a hit or miss?
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 10:36AM
#236
|
Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
|
What "exceptions" are you talking about?
Flurry of Blows, Divine Challenge, Rain of Steel, Magic Missile ... just to name the first 4 that pop into mind.
Even the rule itself has a built in exception:
1) it's an attack power with an attack line
2) except also if its an attack power with a target line that does damage
3) except also if its called an attack by us
4) except if we tell you it isnt actually an attack
Why does an attack have to be a hit or miss?
Because otherwise it's a cobbled together mess of exceptions that break the rules all over the place.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 12:36PM
#237
|
|
|
What "exceptions" are you talking about?
Flurry of Blows, Divine Challenge, Rain of Steel, Magic Missile ... just to name the first 4 that pop into mind.
Even the rule itself has a built in exception:
1) it's an attack power with an attack line
2) except also if its an attack power with a target line that does damage
3) except also if its called an attack by us
4) except if we tell you it isnt actually an attack
Why does an attack have to be a hit or miss?
Because otherwise it's a cobbled together mess of exceptions that break the rules all over the place.
All but Divine Challenge are fine as attacks in my mind, and divine challenge doesn't actually "deal damage" in the conventional sense.
I concede that there needs to be language about what to "deal damage" means-Divine Challenge doesn't meet that criteria in my mind, for instance.
It might be better to divide divine challenge in two-with the Mark as a power, and then a seperate power that's a free action that just directly deals damage.
However, I think that powers that deal damage conditionally later on are not the same thing as powers that deal damage. This isn't really the RAW though. But it's not like "divine challenge is just special." Rather, it's that "a power that deals damage" isnt' clearly defined enough.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 1:26PM
#238
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2007
|
I agree with Tomu, by and large. The current system is more or less ok.
As far as I can see, they just need to alter the wording of a few features slightly, and other than that, it's fine. And it seems much less "cobbled" than the alternative - adding an attack line to "automagic" damage powers.
Magic missile and rain of steel are examples of the current system working. Magic missile is an attack, rain of steel isn't. I'm not sure RoS shouldn't be an attack, but clearly the developers intended it to not count as one (they use it as an example in FAQ 38 for the PHB) and the rules they've specified clearly delineates why is isn't.
Some simple errata to fix some class features:
Divine Challenge: just add "other than divine challenge" to the line that says that making an attack is sufficient to be considered engaging the target. Divine Challenge could remain an attack otherwise, as far as I can tell. I can't forsee any other negative consequences. Divine Challenge would break stealth, and perhaps forceful challenge would benefit from Rushing Cleats. Anything else?
Flurry of Blows: add a few words at the end explaining that you can use this power in addition to other free action attacks.
Wild Shape: it needs a thorough going over regardless of the definition of attack, so I won't deal with this here.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 1:32PM
#239
|
Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
|
All but Divine Challenge are fine as attacks in my mind, and divine challenge doesn't actually "deal damage" in the conventional sense.
I concede that there needs to be language about what to "deal damage" means-Divine Challenge doesn't meet that criteria in my mind, for instance.
It might be better to divide divine challenge in two-with the Mark as a power, and then a seperate power that's a free action that just directly deals damage.
However, I think that powers that deal damage conditionally later on are not the same thing as powers that deal damage. This isn't really the RAW though. But it's not like "divine challenge is just special." Rather, it's that "a power that deals damage" isnt' clearly defined enough.
The point is that you are just expanding the list of exceptions and codas further and further, and its bad enough with the current rule even before you start asking for additional rules. They should just stick with a simple and clean method : Use the attack line. Whether or not Magic Missile is a hit under that is just a point to be discussed and decided upon.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2010 - 3:31PM
#240
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2007
|
But Fitz, the problem is, your suggestion doesn't reduce the amount of errata needed. All those wizard powers would need to be changed too.
|
|
|
