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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 6:52PM
#71
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No, nor did I claim they did. Nice attempt to build a strawman though.
Oh, cool! You took a logic and philosophy class at community college, too!
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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 6:54PM
#72
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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Oh, cool! You took a logic and philosophy class at community college, too!
Nah, it's just a shorthand way of saying "good job trying to put words in my mouth that have nothing to do with my point" that I picked up somewhere, possibly on the boards. I may have even used it wrong. 
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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 6:55PM
#73
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Date Joined:
Nov 29, 2001
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Well, we played 2 Red Box 2 fridays ago and with a table of 6 experienced players and a experienced DM.. (most of us have played D&D since 2nd ed) it was just to easy.. no matter what he thru at us we decimated it. I thought going from 3/3.5 to 4e was dumbing it down.. Red box really was dumbed down to i think lower than WoW or DDO (Maybe thats where they get their inspiration now is they play DDO and go 'Ahh lets put this in 4e or Essentials or whatever).
Now if you new to D&D then it is ok.. but really 4E is so simple anyone can play.. but I guess someone out there thought it was TOO hard..so here comes essentials..where yes they dumb it down even more. Heck I would not be surprised it they try to make the at wills/Encounters etc etc something like MtG and you need to buy packs for D&D to get your powers or reward cards for you etc etc.
My only concern is how the RPGA will deal with this.. and I hope they stick with 4e and not essentials (and it sad that there is already a errata on essentials.. uggh.)
Yeah, it's SO easy. I can't imagine anyone new the game being even slightly overwhelmed by three players handbooks, and a half dozen other mixed arcane, divine, martial, and primal power books (which are all around $30 each).
/sarcasm
But the scarcity of books for a new edition only lasts the first year or so. By 2012, there will be like thirty books for Essentials as well, so what's the point? People are still free to use the current PHB1 and ignore everything else if they want; they don't have to use every other book. Just like they would now be free to "only" use the new core six (how is that simpler than a core three?) with its two separate rulesets that are incompatible with each other and the third original ruleset (I guess that makes things clearer and easier somehow?) and not use everything that will be published afterwards. Similarly, even though most of Essentials isn't very compatible with old 4e, you can still use old books with it, so why would a player who only buys the core six feel like he's "done" and doesn't have to buy PHB2 and 3, but a player who buys the original core three would feel like he "has to" buy PHB2 and 3?
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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 6:58PM
#74
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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Which was the exact reason people were complaining in 2008, and Will told them essentially to relax and stop trampling on the fun of other people.
There is nothing wrong with not liking the new direction of the game. There is something wrong with telling others that the fact that they like the new direction of the game is wrong. Especially when the one power source that he feels has changed for the worse has by far the most pre-Essentials support. It is time to share...if you want to play a Martial character with the same design as other classes you still can. And, for the first time ever in 4E, if you want to play a Martial character with a different design you can. The only real concern seems to be one of balance; but all we have now is speculation.
I personally have a lot of faith in the designers. They have given me many years of amazing products. With 4E I have seen the game balanced as never before. I am optimistic that if the designers still want the game to be balanced they would have found a way.
On the other hand, if the designers no longer think class balance is an important part of the game, I will have an issue with the Essentials builds.
Only time will tell.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 7:01PM
#75
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Date Joined:
Nov 29, 2001
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and yet the essentials classes have not changed anything fundamental in the game, they use the existing mechanics. they have not added new actions types or anything that requires new mechanics.
But they do use new mechanics. Class features spread over levels is a new mechanic, as is the separation of "leveled" and "non-leveled" powers and the inability to swap one for the other. Class "kits" that are incompatible with their original class is also a new mechanic. Those things make the new martial classes pretty incompatible with the old ones and vice versa. There's almost nothing a PHB1 fighter can use in HoFL and almost nothing an HoFL fighter can use from PHB or Martial Power 1 or 2. The only things they share are feats and utility powers. They can sort of share PP's and ED's but half of them don't really work correctly on an Essentials martial character.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 7:03PM
#76
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2007
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and yet the essentials classes have not changed anything fundamental in the game, they use the existing mechanics. they have not added new actions types or anything that requires new mechanics.
But they do use new mechanics. Class features spread over levels is a new mechanic, as is the separation of "leveled" and "non-leveled" powers and the inability to swap one for the other. Class "kits" that are incompatible with their original class is also a new mechanic. Those things make the new martial classes pretty incompatible with the old ones and vice versa. There's almost nothing a PHB1 fighter can use in HoFL and almost nothing an HoFL fighter can use from PHB or Martial Power 1 or 2. The only things they share are feats and utility powers. They can sort of share PP's and ED's but half of them don't really work correctly on an Essentials martial character.
well if you want to get into that, its been happening since day one with PPs and EDs introducing new mechanics, as well with psionics.
 Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 7:08PM
#77
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There is nothing wrong with not liking the new direction of the game. There is something wrong with telling others that the fact that they like the new direction of the game is wrong. Especially when the one power source that he feels has changed for the worse has by far the most pre-Essentials support. It is time to share...if you want to play a Martial character with the same design as other classes you still can. And, for the first time ever in 4E, if you want to play a Martial character with a different design you can. The only real concern seems to be one of balance; but all we have now is speculation.
I personally have a lot of faith in the designers. They have given me many years of amazing products. With 4E I have seen the game balanced as never before. I am optimistic that if the designers still want the game to be balanced they would have found a way.
On the other hand, if the designers no longer think class balance is an important part of the game, I will have an issue with the Essentials builds.
Only time will tell.
This sums up how I feel about the new products and the game as a whole. Had an awful good time in this life playing D&D (in all its incarnations) and met a lot of good people.
There are things about 4E that I don't care for that I house rule out, remove, or otherwise disregard. But the game ist still fun for me and the guys I play with. I do find myself getting cheesed off by people who come to these forums (and others) and make these sweeping accusations of WotC and go on about how the game is ruined.
Personally, I take comfort in the fact that any time I'm ready, I can pull my old AD&D books and play that game as it was written three decades ago and still have fun.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 7:09PM
#78
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Date Joined:
Nov 29, 2001
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and yet the essentials classes have not changed anything fundamental in the game, they use the existing mechanics. they have not added new actions types or anything that requires new mechanics.
But they do use new mechanics. Class features spread over levels is a new mechanic, as is the separation of "leveled" and "non-leveled" powers and the inability to swap one for the other. Class "kits" that are incompatible with their original class is also a new mechanic. Those things make the new martial classes pretty incompatible with the old ones and vice versa. There's almost nothing a PHB1 fighter can use in HoFL and almost nothing an HoFL fighter can use from PHB or Martial Power 1 or 2. The only things they share are feats and utility powers. They can sort of share PP's and ED's but half of them don't really work correctly on an Essentials martial character.
well if you want to get into that, its been happening since day one with PPs and EDs introducing new mechanics, as well with psionics.
But none of those broke backwards compatibility within their classes, or were there as part of a design change that would easily stop a former build from getting any new material. When a new Fighter PP came out, it didn't create any sort of change that would splinter fighters into two incompatible classes, and it didn't set up future books to be full of material that existing fighters can't use. That's the problem with an "option" that acts as a wholesale incompatible replacement for the entire original class... it invalidates (directly or indirectly) a bunch of existing stuff.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 7:15PM
#79
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and yet the essentials classes have not changed anything fundamental in the game, they use the existing mechanics. they have not added new actions types or anything that requires new mechanics.
But they do use new mechanics. Class features spread over levels is a new mechanic, as is the separation of "leveled" and "non-leveled" powers and the inability to swap one for the other. Class "kits" that are incompatible with their original class is also a new mechanic. Those things make the new martial classes pretty incompatible with the old ones and vice versa. There's almost nothing a PHB1 fighter can use in HoFL and almost nothing an HoFL fighter can use from PHB or Martial Power 1 or 2. The only things they share are feats and utility powers. They can sort of share PP's and ED's but half of them don't really work correctly on an Essentials martial character.
well if you want to get into that, its been happening since day one with PPs and EDs introducing new mechanics, as well with psionics.
But none of those broke backwards compatibility within their classes, or were there as part of a design change that would easily stop a former build from getting any new material. When a new Fighter PP came out, it didn't create any sort of change that would splinter fighters into two incompatible classes, and it didn't set up future books to be full of material that existing fighters can't use. That's the problem with an "option" that acts as a wholesale incompatible replacement for the entire original class... it invalidates (directly or indirectly) a bunch of existing stuff.
So you're saying you can't have a slayer and a PHB1 fighter in the same party? That they're somehow not compatible...like from two different games?
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3 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2010 - 7:19PM
#80
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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What about Beastmaster Rangers? They have been part of the game since Martial Power, but I don't recall people saying they would (or currently do) ruin the game. All of their powers can only be used if you have the beast companion, so PHB 1 rangers can't use them. Their paragon paths likewise require the beast companion, as do their feats.
And yet...4E has still been fun. People have still enjoyed playing PHB 1 ranger builds, despite getting proportionately less support from future books.
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