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3 years ago ::
Sep 17, 2010 - 9:30PM
#221
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2010
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I follow you, Haldrik, except I still don't see how you get around the idea of everybody in the party having a satyr's flute and the spam problem is the same. Your answer last time is "Yes, but that's true for rare items, too." Except rare items are already controlled access. Your common satyr's flute, if the party could enchant freely, could be used five times in one combat by a five member party. This possibility was enough to make them nerf it from encounter to daily... exactly the sort of thing I think inspired this shift in item design.
Unless item powers are tracked at the party level, but now we're changing the mechanics even more.
...and that's the news from Lake 4th Edition, where the Gnomes are strong, the Half-Orcs are good-looking, and all the PCs are above average.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 17, 2010 - 10:11PM
#222
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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In what sense is it official, when it is not included in the complete collection of official rules?
Essential doesn't mean "there is nothing else official but this." For example, just because the rules for familiars aren't in the Essentials products doesn't mean they're not official rules. Your old books aren't invalidated, and though some things get updated very specifically anything else still works the same. The parcel system and the random treasure distribution system both use the same math and produce the same results.
What part of "The Rules Compendium puts all of the rules of the game in one place" indicates that there are alternative, equally valid and official, rules somewhere else?
What part of "The new Rules Compendium is a comprehensive game reference" (same article, a bit further down) tells you that the book is less than comprehensive?
If they meant to include some older stuff by reference, wouldn't you think they would actually refer to it, and maybe even point at where it can be found? They don't.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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3 years ago ::
Sep 17, 2010 - 10:23PM
#223
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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He stated the reason was to give another tool to DMs, especially ones pressed for time.
It takes time (it can take SERIOUS time, in some cases) to plot out all the parcels for a level.
It takes minutes to just roll it all up.
Except in the random system, you do NOT just roll it all up.
You roll up the parcel sizes.
It takes HOW long to look at the encounters you have planned for a level, and arrange them in approximate order by difficulty? I'd say seconds, considering you don't have to be exact.
That's what the new system saves you. Well, actually, no, it probably takes just as long to roll the dice and allocate parcel sizes to encounters. But the results, instead of reliably making a reasonable amount of sense, probably make no sense at all.
You still have to decide what magic item is appropriate for each character. Except now you have the problem that the magic items are broken into two categories, and the dice have dictated how many of each category the party as a whole gets. So if your party of five want, really need, and can appropriately use four Uncommon items and you happen to have rolled only three Common items for them, you have to pick the most appropriate inadequate magic items, and decide which player doesn't even get that.
This is supposed to be fun and easy for the DM. Oh, and for the players.
Don't like rolling? Then don't. houserule.
Fixed that for you.
This doesn't mean it's useless, or a change for the sake of change.
I don't think it's change for the sake of change. I think it's change for the sake of giving more of the feel of an old system that didn't work.
It serves three clear functions.
1 is as a quick tool to get a parcel without needing to plan it all out
2 is to make it easy for new DMs to do treasure without having to think it all through, and second guess if they're "doing it right". I know I was like this for a while.
3 is to appeal to people who LIKE random treasure tables (there are more than you would think).
As I described, it fails entirely at the first two of these three functions (which in any event are two ways of saying the same thing). In part because it doesn't have random treasure tables - which is a good thing, because that would not merely give the feel of the old system that didn't work, it would actually be the old system that didn't work.
It does all this without actually changing anything. Amazing.
If it doesn't change anything, it is exactly like the old system and has the DM allocating appropriate treasure as he sees fit without even a hint that he ought to be rolling dice.
However, it is NOT exactly like the old system.
It INSTRUCTS the DM to roll the dice and let them make a complete mess of the easiest parts of the treasure-allocation task while making the hard parts even harder. It does not even mention the possibility that the DM might be allowed to exercise intelligence in determining treasure parcel size for an encounter.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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3 years ago ::
Sep 17, 2010 - 10:49PM
#224
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2010
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What part of "The Rules Compendium puts all of the rules of the game in one place" indicates that there are alternative, equally valid and official, rules somewhere else?
What part of "The new Rules Compendium is a comprehensive game reference" (same article, a bit further down) tells you that the book is less than comprehensive?
If they meant to include some older stuff by reference, wouldn't you think they would actually refer to it, and maybe even point at where it can be found? They don't.
Are you SERIOUSLY arguing with a designer about the officialness of various books?
I'm sorry, but that's seriously stupid.
Here, let me clear things up for you.
The Compendium? Has all the rules you need to run the game in one place.
Read the back of the book. "All the CORE rules in one place."
If it's not in there? Then it's not CORE, but it's still a RULE.
Since you're so enamored of that article, try reading it more.
"Because of the book’s focus on the game’s core, some rules didn’t make the cut. Rules for artifacts, for instance, aren’t included."
WHAT A SHOCK! They didn't include some things AND TOLD YOU SO.
It's not their responsibility to list every single OPTIONAL, NON-CORE rule in the game and where to find it. If you have it, you know where to find it already.
In fact, the compendium goes out of it's way to avoid referring to ANY other books.
Seriously, take a Skill Pill™
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
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3 years ago ::
Sep 17, 2010 - 11:02PM
#225
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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Are you SERIOUSLY arguing with a designer about the officialness of various books?
I'm sorry, but that's seriously stupid.
Are you SERIOUSLY arguing with Wizards of the Coast's RPG R&D Director, in an article posted on WotC's own website, about what the Rules Compendium is?
I'm sorry, but that's seriously stupid.
Gee, this is a really profitable discussion, isn't it?
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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3 years ago ::
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:29AM
#226
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Wait did they change the nature of CORE in 4e. I thought everything was CORE in 4e uness that has changed.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:49AM
#227
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2010
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Depends on what you mean by CORE.
Your definition is that EVERYTHING is core.
That makes no sense! You can't have a core without anything surrounding that core.
The core is what's inside, what's in the middle, what's holding everything else up.
You're confusing Core and Official.
Core rules, as found in the Compendium, are the basis of the game, the fundamental rules that everything else is built around.
Consider this. The Compendium includes a section on how to read and understand Powers.
But it doesn't INCLUDE any powers! Powers are most certainly rules, but they're not CORE rules.
They're secondary rules, because they're part of classes.
Notice that nothing in the compendium is class specific. Classes have TONS of rules. Not in the RC.
The core rules are the ones you need to actually PLAY and run the game.
Look at what's included.
Character creation
Levelling up
Monster info
Skills
Making Checks
Exploration
Equipment
Combat
Encounters
Treasure and Rewards
Now look what's NOT included
Actual Powers
Classes
Class features
Feats
Equipment lists
Magic Items
Monsters
Races
These have rules, but are NOT required to play or run the game.
It doesn't matter how "core" you think Wizards are, you can run the game just fine without any of the wizard-specific rules.
But you still need combat rules and skill challenges and exploration...
That's why they're not core. They're all options. Nothing more.
AlexandraErin: If last season was any indication, I think Encounters is pretty much the elemental opposite of "organized" play!
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3 years ago ::
Sep 18, 2010 - 2:38AM
#228
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2003
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I don't see how anything involving the handing out of treasure can really be called anything other than a "guideline" as opposed to an actual "rule" given how intentionally left up to the DM it all is. So, what you get in the RC are suggestions just like what we got in the DMG1 were suggestions.
There was mention of them looking into doing an article on the parcel system for DDI, so we'll likely have even more suggestions in that. I quite doubt that it'd only be a reprinting of what is in the DMG given how everybody from WotC is so adamant that the stuff from there is still offical and still an option and all. If they go ahead an make an article on it, we'll probably see more in-depth suggestions for it, possibly with a variant or two.
Palmerkun: when 4E first came out and particularly when the first suppliments started hitting shelves, there was a meme that was circulated and the community latched onto pretty fast that "everthing is CORE". It was a direct counter to the "CORE ONLY" idea (meaning the PHB, MM, and DMG only) that became such a big thing in 3rd and 3.5 as a way of saying "hey, everybody, you don't need to be afraid to use all of the options we publish because we're trying very hard to make everything pretty balanced now". In 3.5 times, "CORE ONLY" was seen as a way to try to cut down on abusive options and rampant amounts of overpowered materials available in the splatbooks (honestly, Clerics, Druids, and Wizards still started owning the games around 7th-12th level even in "CORE ONLY" games, but it wasn't as horrendously obvious without the splatbook options). So while I can't fault you for going the route you're going, I don't know if 1) the RC actually has enough of the rules for them there to make classes with if needed (so as to have "all the rules needed to play 4E) or 2) if the "Everthing's CORE" meme won't continue to be fostered as a way of continuing to say that "Everything's BALANCED", so I can't side with or against your line of reasoning yet. I have looked through the RC, but I spent the money I had to spare on HotFL and I mainly looked through the treasure section of the RC when I had the chance, so I don't know how much concerning classes is in there.
Knowing is Half the Battle.
The Other Half is VIOLENCE.
Imagine a lightsaber duel between Optimus Prime and Batman. You're welcome.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 18, 2010 - 8:35AM
#229
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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Let's not do the Core vs core route again, as it begins to include the stuff from Dragon then the discussion quickly deteriorates.
The Rules within the pages of that book is organized, indexed and presented for quick reference and gathered for ease of use. If you wanted an encylopedia of D&D rules, you can go to the DDi service and use the Compendium, or type it all out from all the books you have, make the Errata changes, and print them out and put them in the three or four binders it would take to carry them in.
Not sure why this is hard to understand.
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
Show
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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3 years ago ::
Sep 18, 2010 - 9:30AM
#230
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Just so you know that is not my definition of core. It is what WotC has considered core. Thus far they have contended that most everything (if not everything) is core. If that has not officially changed and we are just talking about what we think is core by our own definition of core that is fine. Not worth arguing about really.
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