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2 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2010 - 7:04PM
#191
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Um, relating my position to the rules on one OA per turn and then "defeating" it is a straw man. Thanks for playing.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 12:42AM
#192
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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Um, relating my position to the rules on one OA per turn and then "defeating" it is a straw man. Thanks for playing.
As I just explained, I did neither of those things. Try and find a quote in which I either state your position is that the rules on OAs per turn are ignored or that I attempt to defeat such an idea. You'll find neither.
I am stating that your position is "if a power or feat says you do something, you do it, and the general rule that may prevent you from doing so is ignored, because that that is fundamental to 4e's design" and that the logical conclusion of this position is that the rules on OAs per turn, since they are a general rule that might prevent you from taking the OA granted by PG, would be ignored. This is entirely different. Go read the wikipedia entries on Straw Man and Reductio Ad Absurdum and come back when you can tell the difference. I doubt you'll disagree that the quote is your position, since it's taken directly from one of your posts; if you disagree that the OA per turn rules should be overriden by PG, you either need to show why this is not the logical conclusion of your position or you need to alter your position. If you manage to do that, try addressing some of the other points that have been brought up instead of ignoring them as you have been. Throwing out the name of a fallacy you don't really understand is not a valid way of addressing arguments- and I'm being generous in assuming it's a misunderstanding rather than a deliberate distraction on your part.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 1:15AM
#193
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Refusing to admit I used the fallacy correctly just because you don't want to admit you used a strawman is hardly a compelling defense on your part, sorry. I don't need to further explain my position, it is quite clear, you simply disagree with the conclusion. Since you're clearly not going to be swayed from your position, despite that it is contrary to what the rules actually say (at least what they say right now), why bother? And CS is RAW for LFR, so I find it very relevant, though I don't always agree with the answers, they have been very consistent on this point from what I've seen however. Hello XXX, Thank you for contacting us. Here are the answers I found: 1. Does an enemy shifting from a nonadjacent to an adjacent square trigger/provoke the Polearm Gamble attack? A: Yes, you get the attack from any type of movement. 2. Additionally, can Polearm Gamble be triggered from an enemy that was forced to move adjacent to someone with the feat, since it 'enters a square adjacent to you? A: Yes, you get the attack from any type of movement. Please let me know if you need anymore help! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Jamie Online Response Crew Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday- Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
Saturday- Sunday 10am-4pm PST / 1pm-7pm EST
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 3:47AM
#194
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Since you're clearly not going to be swayed from your position, despite that it is contrary to what the rules actually say (at least what they say right now), why bother?
The Rule dont say that. The Rule say not only Forced Movement and Teleport don't Trigger Opportunity Attacks , but any Opportunity Actions and Shift dont Trigger OA's unless an effect specify otherwise as well.
And Polearm Gamble DOES NOT specify otherwise, it changes the Trigger. It does not say Forced Movement, Shift & Teleports provoke, it simply say entering an adjacent square provoke, instead of leaving one.
Yes moving refer to leaving a square to enter another, but no where does Polearm Gamble infere that entering an adjacent square provoke by all type of movement. Leaving a square also provoke, and Forced Movement, Shift and Teleports exempt them from triggerring an OA.
For an othwerwise specified exemple (Specific vs General) see Weapon Master's Strike.
Ex. Spear or Polearm: Until the end of your next turn, the target provokes opportunity attacks from you when it shifts.
RC 212 Forced Movement: When a target is Pushed, Pulled or Slid, it does not Trigger Opportunity Action, such as Opportunity Attacks, that are triggerred by movement.
RC 249 Shift: Unless the description of a effect says otherwise, Shifting does not Trigger Opportunity Action, such as Opportunity Attacks.
RC 213 Teleportation: When a target Teleports, it does not Trigger Opportunity Action, such as Opportunity Attacks, that are triggerred by movement.
And Opportunity Attack says:
RC 213 Opportunity Attack: Certain type of movement don't provoke opportunity attacks unless an effect specify otherwise: Forced Movement, Shifting and Teleportation. Some powers and other effects allow a creature to enter a creature's space. If that enemy is not Helpless, entering it's space still provoke an Opportunity Attack, because the creature left a space adjacent to the enemy. Forced Movement, Shifting and Teleportation ignore this fact, as normal.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 4:21AM
#195
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2008
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And CS is RAW for LFR (...)
No. In the latest version of the LFR CCG, Customer Support is listed as a secondary source that is no longer binding for LFR.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 4:50AM
#196
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Since you're clearly not going to be swayed from your position, despite that it is contrary to what the rules actually say (at least what they say right now), why bother?
The Rule dont say that. The Rule say not only Forced Movement and Teleport don't Trigger Opportunity Attacks , but any Opportunity Actions and Shift dont Trigger OA's unless an effect specify otherwise as well.
And Polearm Gamble DOES NOT specify otherwise, it changes the Trigger. It does not say Forced Movement, Shift & Teleports provoke, it simply say entering an adjacent square provoke, instead of leaving one.
Yes moving refer to leaving a square to enter another, but no where does Polearm Gamble infere that entering an adjacent square provoke by all type of movement. Leaving a square also provoke, and Forced Movement, Shift and Teleports exempt them from triggerring an OA.
For an othwerwise specified exemple (Specific vs General) see Weapon Master's Strike.
Ex. Spear or Polearm: Until the end of your next turn, the target provokes opportunity attacks from you when it shifts.
RC 212 Forced Movement: When a target is Pushed, Pulled or Slid, it does not Trigger Opportunity Action, such as Opportunity Attacks, that are triggerred by movement.
RC 249 Shift: Unless the description of a effect says otherwise, Shifting does not Trigger Opportunity Action, such as Opportunity Attacks.
RC 213 Teleportation: When a target Teleports, it does not Trigger Opportunity Action, such as Opportunity Attacks, that are triggerred by movement.
And Opportunity Attack says:
RC 213 Opportunity Attack: Certain type of movement don't provoke opportunity attacks unless an effect specify otherwise: Forced Movement, Shifting and Teleportation. Some powers and other effects allow a creature to enter a creature's space. If that enemy is not Helpless, entering it's space still provoke an Opportunity Attack, because the creature left a space adjacent to the enemy. Forced Movement, Shifting and Teleportation ignore this fact, as normal.
And, again, because the literal definition of all forms of movement in 4e involve entering/leaving a square PG's trigger is "an enemy attempts to enter an adjacent square to you with any form of movement." Which is a specific exception to all the above, general, rules.
You're specifically trying to go "PG is an OA > OA's don't trigger from Forced Movement" and that is wrong, the correct line is "OAs don't trigger on forced movement > PG's OA triggers off of anything becoming adjacent for any reason."
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 4:52AM
#197
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2006
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Good arguments all around, but you all seem to be fixating on the wrong part. The wording of the feat is "When a nonadjacent enemy enters a square adjacent to you".
RC pg 200 "enter a square: Move in to a square on the battle grid by any means, whether willingly or unwillingly."
Far as I can tell that really should be all you need to read to handle the situation. Doesn't matter if the enemy shifts, is pulled or slid, the character will get an opportunity attack. The teleporting when not within reach thing, that's probably the only situation that the person wouldn't get an opportunity attack.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 5:14AM
#198
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I'd say that is pretty clear, good catch KingSlacker.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 5:22AM
#199
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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And according to your point, Opportunity Attack Power would also Trigger off Forced Movement, Shift and Teleportation.
See its Trigger.
It doesn't for the same reasons.
Enter is used because of the general premise. When you Walk or Crawl, you also enter.
The point is Polearm Gamble does not specify otherwise, as Weapon Master's Strike or Warpriest Challenge does, and therefore does not Trigger Opportunity Actions at all. Not just Opportunity Attacks, but any powers using an Opportunity Action.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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2 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2010 - 5:23AM
#200
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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Mm. On that wording, the only means of entering a square that will not trigger PG is teleportation - because then, you don't technically enter the square, you appear within it without moving.
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