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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 1:47PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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Re: forced movement question (FYI) This isn't definitive, and I don't know what else the rules compendium will address, but according to another poster in the thread about falling and AO:
No opportunity Actions Triggered: When a creature falls past an enemy, the creature does not trigger opportunity actions, such as opportunity attacks, from the enemy that are triggered by movement."
Page 209, Rules Compendium. If this isn't in the errata I imagine it will make it's way there soon, there are already several pages of updates based on heroes of the Fallen Kingdom's Land or whatever it's called.
This implies that falling is treated as forced movement. And by the language, the suggestion is that forced movement doesn't trigger opportunity actions that are triggered by movement (note that they've fixed the language - using the word 'triggered' here and avoiding the issues related to 'provoking').
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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 1:55PM
#42
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The enemy actually is doing something that triggers the opportunity attack from polearm gamble: entering an adjacent square. Shifting only prevents you from provoking opportunity attacks under the normal rules for opportunity attacks. This is not a normal opportunity attack, it is a triggered action specific to the feat.
So what? An enemy always has to do something to provoke an Opportunity Attack. If Polearm Gamble were different because it's being granted by a feat then it could have called itself an Opportunity Action, which are more broad than Opportunity Attack, however, it didn't. It specifically says it is giving you an Opportunity Attack, as such, it follows the rules for Opportunity Attacks it doesn't specifically overwrite. Normally, an enemy entering an adjacent space doesn't provoke an Opportunity Attack, Polearm Gamble overrides that by making that provoke one.
Shifting prevents Opportunity Attacks, period. That's what its rule says. Is Polearm Gamble giving you an Opportunity Attack? Yes. Can Shifting provoke an Opportunity Attack? No. Anything else is either over analyzing language or creating language that isn't there.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 2:17PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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Galkasaur, the argument re: Polearm Gamble is two-pronged. It relates to the use of the terms "enters" and to "provokes". Analyzing the language is relevant because this is the 4e Rules Forum, not Houserules.
The term "enters" is important because it encompasses all forms of movement not explicitly excepted by all types of attacks of opportunity (ie. provoked and triggered). Shifting is a type of movement that is only excepted for provoked attacks of opportunity.
Whether you agree or disagree is your prerogative. As far as I'm concerned, both sides of the argument have legitimate basis. Unfortunately, the ambiguity in the rules is apparent and undisputable to many of us. Everyone here is probably assessing the authors' *intent* to really arrive at an interpretation. At this point in time however you side you are effectively making a judgement call (ie. a houserule). This area of the rules needs erratta. Bottom line. Because I don't see any real progress to the debate. Neither side is really being convinced the other way.
Edit: I'll emphasize that I REALLY would like to see erratta on this - esp. since "Polearm Gamble" is a linchpin feat for most polearm builds out there.
If you have anything new to add to the debate, I'm sure we're all 'all-ears'.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 3:19PM
#44
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I never said not to analyze the language, I said that the argument is being over complicated by reading language that isn't there.
Yes, enters applies to all forms of movement but just because something applies to all forms of movement doesn't mean all the forms of movement that fall under that category are capable of provoking an Opportunity Attack.
To highlight that point, look at the Shaman Opportunity Action Spirit's Shield. Its trigger refers to an enemy leaving a square without shifting. The note on shifting is important because shifting could otherwise trigger a general Opportunity Action. Note, the trigger makes no mention of teleporting or forced movement, however, both those forms of movement specify they can't trigger Opportunity Actions. That doesn't suddenly make Spirit's Shield a specific beats general exception to those rules, it makes no reference like 'even teleportation or even if the movement is a result of forced movement'. Polearm Gamble is no different a case. So what if it uses a phrase that is over inclusive? That doesn't matter because the movement modes that are over included; teleporting, shifting, forced movement, etc. have their own qualifiers which prevent them from triggering an Opportunity Attack.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 3:47PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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Yes, enters applies to all forms of movement but just because something applies to all forms of movement doesn't mean all the forms of movement that fall under that category are capable of provoking an Opportunity Attack.
To highlight that point, look at the Shaman Opportunity Action Spirit's Shield. Its trigger refers to an enemy leaving a square without shifting. The note on shifting is important because shifting could otherwise trigger a general Opportunity Action.
Not really. Opportunity Actions encompass a much wider field of actions that just Opportunity Attacks. Shifting ONLY avoids provoking Opportunity Attacks - ie. situations where someone is moving away from an adjacent square.
Mand12, you hit the nail on the head there.
The rules for shifting do NOT say that you are immune to all Opportunity Attacks when you shift.
"However, you do not provoke an opportunity attack if you shift or teleport or are forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide."
The key word in that sentence is away. You don't provoke if you shift AWAY from the defender. What happens if you shift in?
Nothing! You don't provoke! You're not provoking and the feat has nothing to do with provoking.
It may not be directly pertinent to the rules discussion, but I can envision the difference pretty clearly. In the one case where someone is shifting away, they are making a careful defensive retreat AWAY from someone's threatening reach. In the other case where someone has the Polearm Gamble feat, they represent someone who has a unique prepared defense to address opponents moving WITHIN/INTO their reach. Moving away from someone's zone of control should usually be easier than moving into their zone, in the case where that person is specifically prepared to handle that eventuality. I don't care how you move towards me - I've got this big pointy stick pointed at you ready to drive into your thigh.
I'm sure a counter example is possible. This is just my perspective. And I'm not discounting that your arguments don't have merit. I'm just saying that there are a number of us who are so far unconvinced by that line of reasoning.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 4:47PM
#46
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The RC says that shifting does not trigger opportunity actions, such as opportunity attacks. (page 249) It does not use the word provoke.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 4:53PM
#47
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Yes, enters applies to all forms of movement but just because something applies to all forms of movement doesn't mean all the forms of movement that fall under that category are capable of provoking an Opportunity Attack.
To highlight that point, look at the Shaman Opportunity Action Spirit's Shield. Its trigger refers to an enemy leaving a square without shifting. The note on shifting is important because shifting could otherwise trigger a general Opportunity Action.
Not really. Opportunity Actions encompass a much wider field of actions that just Opportunity Attacks. Shifting ONLY avoids provoking Opportunity Attacks - ie. situations where someone is moving away from an adjacent square.
I believe you completely missed what I was talking about int he bolded section. Shifting, at least according to the compendium, does not trigger Opportunity Attacks. However, Opportunity Attacks are a subset of Opportunity Actions. Therefore, Shifting, as you pointed out, only protects from Opportunity Attacks.
Moving on, the point I was making in the bolded section was that it's important that the Shaman power specifies it is not triggered by shifting, because otherwise shifting could trigger the power since it is the more general Opportunity Action, not its subset of Opportunity Attacks. So, I have no idea what your point in addressing that was.
To Melos > Interesting note on the RC, so is the current entry in the Compendium going to get revised? There, it says Shifting does not trigger Opportunity Attacks, not Opportunity Actions.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 4:56PM
#48
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I would think so, maybe it will be updated on the 21st.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 5:00PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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The RC says that shifting does not trigger opportunity actions, such as opportunity attacks. (page 249)
Do you have the language of that ruling? It will be nice if that's exactly what it says, as that will clear up the debate on that point.
Edit: nevermind, I just saw the note below - I'll wait till I see the full language, but we might not be out of the woods...
To Melos > Interesting note on the RC, so is the current entry in the Compendium going to get revised? There, it says Shifting does not trigger Opportunity Attacks, not Opportunity Actions.
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3 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2010 - 5:49PM
#50
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This is under the Shift heading of the rules on page 249:
No Opportunity Actions Triggered: Unless the description of an effect says otherwise, shifting doesnt trigger opportunity actions, such as opportunity attacks.
Also, on page 246, Opportunity Attack is actually an attack power with a trigger line.
The following text appears:
Triggering this power is usually referred to as provoking an opportunity attack, and using it is referred to as making an opportunity attack.
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Certain types of movement don't provoke opportunity attacks, unless an effect specifies otherwise: forced movement, shifting, and teleportation.
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