|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 8:16AM
#11
|
|
|
So everyone who trains in a craft is equally capable at it and can always produce a work of quality equal to the greatest masters?
No, but everyone who says, "my character creates a work of art whose quality is equal to the greatest masters" can. Being a great artist does not affect the game mechanically. It is purely a bit of flavor. Can everyone who goes on a date be happily married? No, but if you say, "My character is happily married," you are.
Why is art any easier or harder than love?
How does one represent fair-to-middling ability, or show progress from novice to expert?
By describing it? If the player wants to describe his progress, then he will. If he doesn't, then he won't. I don't see the problem here.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 8:32AM
#12
|
Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
|
Automatic success is hardly satisfying.
The player can always roll a check and set his own minimum required roll, if that makes him happy. But since it doesn't matter if he succeeds or not, the choice should be his and only his.
So everyone who trains in a craft is equally capable at it and can always produce a work of quality equal to the greatest masters?
If said person is a PC, he gets to pick how good he is at his art, at best with some mediating from the DM and other players if he´s pushing it too far.
If said person is not a PC, the DM decides who the better person is.
If the PC shows off against the NPC, the PC decides who is better, because he´s the main character and the NPC isn´t.
How does one represent fair-to-middling ability, or show progress from novice to expert?
Narrative. Since it's not effecting the gameplay, it doesn't matter and your player is free to go about it any way he likes.
--
Note that if it does matter to the game who is better, you are in a Skill Challenge, which means all earlier posts about Skill Challenges apply.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 9:18AM
#13
|
Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2009
|
Well, my premise is that it does matter mechanically and does affect gameplay. Not all the time, of course, but it can. What if a character is busking? Or trying to get a job in a theater troupe? Either could be a Diplomacy check, I suppose, but that would imply that a politican could earn just as much money on the street as a musician could, or that a Paladin with no acting experience could persuade his way into a production without using Bluff. And how would musical or artistic skill be represented in a skill challenge? Dueling banjoleles, for instance?  Just using Dexterity and Charisma checks would seem to minimize the impact a skilled musician would bring to the competition.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 9:27AM
#14
|
|
|
Well, my premise is that it does matter mechanically and does affect gameplay. Not all the time, of course, but it can. What if a character is busking? Or trying to get a job in a theater troupe? Either could be a Diplomacy check, I suppose, but that would imply that a politican could earn just as much money on the street as a musician could, or that a Paladin with no acting experience could persuade his way into a production without using Bluff.
And how would musical or artistic skill be represented in a skill challenge? Dueling banjoleles, for instance? Just using Dexterity and Charisma checks would seem to minimize the impact a skilled musician would bring to the competition.
4E's mechanics are not designed to be used in a simulationist context. They are designed to be used to play the game.
If you want a simulationist setting, where the skills apply exactly the same way to PCs as NPCs, and all creatures function the exact same way regardless of context, and lava pits deal the same amount of damage regardless of tier, and an item's HP is always directly proportional to its build and makeup rather than what level item it is-etc etc etc, you probably want to play a different game.
A politician is an NPC-its abilities are determined by the plot. Same goes for an artist. If a PC is an artist, the DM can throw circumstance modifiers onto anything they do that can be foreseen as being "Artsy fartsy" or what-have-you. But 4E really doesn't do well for this "Everyone in the world needs the exact same well defined rules set for everything."
In short: d20 rolls modified by ability scores with extra modifiers as the plot demands, made against arbitrary DCs as the plot demands.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 9:52AM
#15
|
|
|
If I understand you correctly, you are looking for a way to handle roleplaying situations with with an element of chance that allows you or your players to feel a sense of acomplishment or disappointment depending on the chance result. This sounds like one of the following would be applicable:
1. Actions that the Rules don't conver (DMG P.42). Follow the guidelines to determine wether it is a Combat, Skill or Ability check and set an appropriate DC.
2. As a hard and fast solution, when I DM, I just let players roll a d20 and improvise the result. In general, everything above 5 succeds, 10 is good, 15 is very good and a 20 is amazing. I only use this solution if the character has a relation to the action in his background or the way he has presented his character so far.
Pluisjen has it right. Most things you describe will easily be covered by skills when asking for intentions as opposed to actions taken. Adjusting DCs by experience in a given field or giving situational boni will do the rest.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 11:06AM
#16
|
Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2009
|
Well, to be honest, I'm not coming at it from a DM's perspective. I'm more wondering how, as a player, I would create a character who was a Master at her craft (the capitalized sense is Morgensternian -- meant to evoke the Wizardry of Inigo Montoya).
One who wishes to create a character thoroughly mastered at swordplay and proficient in the use of swords in virtually every situation can do so under the rules as written. One who wishes to do the same for an acrobat can as well. Or a diplomat. But one who wishes to do the same for an artisan or artist cannot.
This strikes me as an odd assymetry. You have all mentioned good workarounds, but I don't understand why an athlete or a thief is treated so much differently from a musician or a dancer in fourth edition. Athletics and Thievery can be put to multiple purposes, too, but there is still a way to measure characters' training in those skills.
Or, take it from the other side: how is it that a character that wishes to be an outstanding tightrope walker must spend feats and skills on Acrobatics, while a character that wishes to be an outstanding woodworker need only have that information in his background and can spend his feats and skills on other things?
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 11:29AM
#17
|
|
|
Well, to be honest, I'm not coming at it from a DM's perspective. I'm more wondering how, as a player, I would create a character who was a Master at her craft (the capitalized sense is Morgensternian -- meant to evoke the Wizardry of Inigo Montoya).
One who wishes to create a character thoroughly mastered at swordplay and proficient in the use of swords in virtually every situation can do so under the rules as written. One who wishes to do the same for an acrobat can as well. Or a diplomat. But one who wishes to do the same for an artisan or artist cannot.
This strikes me as an odd assymetry. You have all mentioned good workarounds, but I don't understand why an athlete or a thief is treated so much differently from a musician or a dancer in fourth edition. Athletics and Thievery can be put to multiple purposes, too, but there is still a way to measure characters' training in those skills.
Or, take it from the other side: how is it that a character that wishes to be an outstanding tightrope walker must spend feats and skills on Acrobatics, while a character that wishes to be an outstanding woodworker need only have that information in his background and can spend his feats and skills on other things?
Play a psion with the shapes consciousness feature. Now you can create items OUT OF THIN AIR!!!
There are no rules for being an awesome artist. You just have to work with your DM.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 11:37AM
#18
|
|
|
Or, take it from the other side: how is it that a character that wishes to be an outstanding tightrope walker must spend feats and skills on Acrobatics, while a character that wishes to be an outstanding woodworker need only have that information in his background and can spend his feats and skills on other things?
Because you can use your outstanding Acrobatics to kill people, avoid being killed by people, and overcome environmental challenges better. You cannot do the same with woodworking, ballet, painting, or any other art.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 11:41AM
#19
|
|
|
Well, to be honest, I'm not coming at it from a DM's perspective. I'm more wondering how, as a player, I would create a character who was a Master at her craft (the capitalized sense is Morgensternian -- meant to evoke the Wizardry of Inigo Montoya).
One who wishes to create a character thoroughly mastered at swordplay and proficient in the use of swords in virtually every situation can do so under the rules as written. One who wishes to do the same for an acrobat can as well. Or a diplomat. But one who wishes to do the same for an artisan or artist cannot.
This strikes me as an odd assymetry. You have all mentioned good workarounds, but I don't understand why an athlete or a thief is treated so much differently from a musician or a dancer in fourth edition. Athletics and Thievery can be put to multiple purposes, too, but there is still a way to measure characters' training in those skills.
Or, take it from the other side: how is it that a character that wishes to be an outstanding tightrope walker must spend feats and skills on Acrobatics, while a character that wishes to be an outstanding woodworker need only have that information in his background and can spend his feats and skills on other things?
One thing you wanna keep in mind is the 1/2 level mod to skill checks. A level 16 Bard with 22 Charisma is adding 14 to his skill check to get in that play you were talking about. A level 2 Bard with 16 Charisma is adding 4 to his check to do the same thing. Another thing to consider is that the only difference between the acrobat's skill check and the wood worker that you mentioned is that the acrobat has a +5 bonus from skill training, unless he took feat support.
With all that in mind, you'll need to work something out with your DM. Specifically, I would look into the rules for backgrounds in PHB2, which give you bonuses to skills based on your backstory. Ask your DM if you can have an "Artist" background, which gives you a +5 bonus to any check to paint/act/sing/all of the above that you make. This simulates skill training and puts you on par with any standard skill. It may not be specificially written in the books, but the rules for backgrounds and page 42 of the DM guide are left open ended just so you can work in this sort of thing.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2010 - 11:58AM
#20
|
|
|
Or, take it from the other side: how is it that a character that wishes to be an outstanding tightrope walker must spend feats and skills on Acrobatics, while a character that wishes to be an outstanding woodworker need only have that information in his background and can spend his feats and skills on other things?
Because you can use your outstanding Acrobatics to kill people, avoid being killed by people, and overcome environmental challenges better. You cannot do the same with woodworking, ballet, painting, or any other art.
This is the real reason.
While it may take many years of practice to become a good painter, it won't do much against a beholder (unless you flavor your powers as paintings come to life or something), cause, well, beauty is in the eye of the... umm.. viewer.
guides
Show
my builds
Show
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
|
|
|
