Now that these "skills" are placed as part of the narrative, where they belong, your carpenter is just as effective in the mechanical parts of game as that acrobat, AND he can do carpenter stuff in the odd corner cases where it comes up.
I like your post and I think it makes sense.
But one question: how to justify that the carpenter has time to do everything PLUS carpentry, while the acrobat who spends all of his off-time practicing his acrobatic skills, gets only the same acrobatics bonuses the carpenter could get?
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
*Wonders if LtPowers has read page 42 of the DM guide*
=p
No, I don't own the DMG.
But I'm a big fan of interoperability. I like to keep customization to a minimum; it seems like a character should be able to be dropped into just about any campaign by any DM with a minimum of adjustments. That's just a personal preference, I suppose, but it seems like that's the whole point behind having a gaming system.
Page 42 is basically the rules for "everything else".
If your group wants to do skill checks for painting/singing/basketweaving, then do it. Your DM sets the DC, you roll a d20 + 1/2 your level + Stat mod, if you beat the DC you succeed, just like every other skill in the game. If you've decided that your character is a skilled artist, your DM will probably give you the +5 bonus for being trained in the skill. Your character can now make checks to be a master artist equivalent to any acrobat or diplomat.
wrecan: But that still doesn't explain why we need a Skill to represent how well he sings in a non-adventuring fashion. LtPowers: It's so that an adventuring musician character has a way to mechanically demonstrate his dedication to his craft
That's a tautology. Obviously a mechanic that represents how well someone sings is a way to mechanically demonstrate his dedication to singing. It doesn't answer why such a thing is necessary.
However, I think you do answer it later: "I also like the drama of mechanics and dice rolling"
You like rolling dice. And while I think that's an intriguing answer, it's really not a helpful game design answer. Having an urge to roll dice doesn't tell me why you should be able to satisfy that urge when role-playing song, as opposed to, say, rolling to see if you find your slippers without getting out of bed, or rolling to see if your breakfast is too cold. Lot's of things can be represented by random dice, but not everything should.
LtPowers: "a character should be able to be dropped into just about any campaign by any DM with a minimum of adjustments"
What adjustments do you think is necessary to drop a singer into a D&D campaign that would not be necessary if there were a singing mechanic?
Now that these "skills" are placed as part of the narrative, where they belong, your carpenter is just as effective in the mechanical parts of game as that acrobat, AND he can do carpenter stuff in the odd corner cases where it comes up.
I like your post and I think it makes sense.
But one question: how to justify that the carpenter has time to do everything PLUS carpentry, while the acrobat who spends all of his off-time practicing his acrobatic skills, gets only the same acrobatics bonuses the carpenter could get?
Powers &8^]
Since the skills being rolled are still the adventuring skills, here are some of the ways I see it working.
The carpenter's party, upon coming into town for a few days rest or to gather information, now has a few days of free time. The carpenter, since he has plenty of money from adventuring, decides to donate some time to the local church by fixing the door on the confessional, repairing a pew, or building a new podium. The church lets its parishoners know of the character's charity, giving the party a +2 to Diplomacy or Gather Information checks when interacting with people of the faith while the carpenter is present.
In a similar vein, let's say the party's reputation for charity and adventure gets them noticed by the local Duke. During the feast, the Duke's jester falls and hurts himself. The acrobat or Bard, not wanting to deprive the guests of a performance, offers to entertain the Duke and his friends. The acrobat can roll acrobatics to give a masterful performance, entertaining the Duke and his advisors, and giving the party a +2 bonus on their Diplomacy checks with the Duke. The Bard, on the other hand, already mucically inclined, now wants to influence the Duke. He rolls Insight to determine the Duke's mood, or History to see if he remembers the Duke's family do something great in the past, and then he performs. If he guaged the Duke's mood correctly, or picked a properly glorious moment in the Ducal family's history (rolled high enough), he should gain a +2 to +4 bonus on subsequent Diplomacy rolls while the party negotiates with the Duke. The character is a Bard, one can assume the music or tale is performed well, but did the Bard choose the right subject matter to sway his audience.
You like rolling dice. And while I think that's an intriguing answer, it's really not a helpful game design answer. Having an urge to roll dice doesn't tell me why you should be able to satisfy that urge when role-playing song, as opposed to, say, rolling to see if you find your slippers without getting out of bed, or rolling to see if your breakfast is too cold. Lot's of things can be represented by random dice, but not everything should.
Well, those other things are usually trivial. You may find music trivial, but when I RP a bard, I don't.
What adjustments do you think is necessary to drop a singer into a D&D campaign that would not be necessary if there were a singing mechanic?
It's not that; it's that whatever one of these many methods of showcasing the artisan's craftsmanship in game terms is highly DM-dependent.
You like rolling dice. And while I think that's an intriguing answer, it's really not a helpful game design answer. Having an urge to roll dice doesn't tell me why you should be able to satisfy that urge when role-playing song, as opposed to, say, rolling to see if you find your slippers without getting out of bed, or rolling to see if your breakfast is too cold. Lot's of things can be represented by random dice, but not everything should.
Well, those other things are usually trivial. You may find music trivial, but when I RP a bard, I don't.
Just like to point out that our bard is a Mime, and can't sing.
I could also easily imagine a monk/wizard who played the flute for his powers.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
wrecan: But that still doesn't explain why we need a Skill to represent how well he sings in a non-adventuring fashion. LtPowers: It's so that an adventuring musician character has a way to mechanically demonstrate his dedication to his craft
That's a tautology. Obviously a mechanic that represents how well someone sings is a way to mechanically demonstrate his dedication to singing. It doesn't answer why such a thing is necessary.
However, I think you do answer it later: "I also like the drama of mechanics and dice rolling"
You like rolling dice. And while I think that's an intriguing answer, it's really not a helpful game design answer. Having an urge to roll dice doesn't tell me why you should be able to satisfy that urge when role-playing song, as opposed to, say, rolling to see if you find your slippers without getting out of bed, or rolling to see if your breakfast is too cold. Lot's of things can be represented by random dice, but not everything should.
Yes, not everything should be, but Lt isn't referring to finding your shoes in the morning. He's referring to accomplishing a feat showcasing the skill. If the artist Bard decides to paint a painting to present to the king as a gift, why are you so set against the idea that there are varying degrees of success? D&D isn't just an adventuring game, it's a role playing game. Would combat be as much fun if success was guaranteed and you narrated "We killed the dragon and barely escaped with our lives!" to sum up the battle?
To use Malak's example, why go out of your way to explain an insight or history check when page 42 gives you pretty clear guidelines for making a musician check to impress the duke? 1d20 + 1/2 level + Cha mod, a 20 or higher is a success. I'd toss in a +5 bonus for being trained as a musician, and for each 5 points past 20 you gain a +2 to diplomacy relations with the duke for the rest of the campaign. Now the musician is amazing the Duke with his skills as a musician instead of shoe-horning in a history check, as I assume a player like Lt would want.
Also @ LtPowers, the rules I've been referring to here really aren't DM dependent. It's how the book says to handle things that aren't covered in the book.
