you followed pretty soon after with a suggestion that including more people of color in the books' artwork might drive away white people, which is indeed an example of exactly the mentality I mentioned.
are you saying that's impossible? ... if so I wonder where you got your PhD in markeing ...
Pursuing it in a social science field, actually, at Western Michigan University. You also might want to read my response slightly upthread to Hocus-Smokus.
then I repeat my question ... are you saying that's impossible?
Qube's block builder: if you want to create blocks for powers, items and monsters for this forum, but don't know html "Signature in a box"Show
For years, I've lived a double life. In the day, I do my job - I ride the bus, roll up my sleeves with the hoi-polloi. But at night, I live a life of exhilaration, of missed heartbeats and adrenalin. And, if the truth be known a life of dubious virtue. I won't deny it - I've been engaged in violence, even indulged in it. I've maimed and killed adversaries, and not merely in self-defence. I've exhibited disregard for life, limb and property, and savoured every moment. You may not think it, to look of me but I have commanded armies, and conquered worlds. And though in achieving these things I've set morality aside, I have no regrets. For though I've led a double life, at least I can say - I've lived.
Scipio: And Chihuahuas have definitely improved in the "attacking ankles, yapping, and being generally annoying" environment. Me: OK, am I the only who sees an analogy between forum trolls & Chihuahuas?
XDMC 19 (silver): A full fledged assassins guild (with stats, skill challenges, ...)link XDMC 14 (Bronze): a one shot campaign for beginning DMs/players. link XDMC 16: Paragon path: the Epitome: being better then all then any one else. link (note: this is balanced) XDMC 25: The Gelatinous Cube mount Guide To Disreality: a collection of houserules - Introduction & table of content
Pursuing it in a social science field, actually, at Western Michigan University. You also might want to read my response slightly upthread to Hocus-Smokus.
then I repeat my question ... are you saying that's impossible?
In a word, yes. At least in an educational context, there's no evidence that white males react negatively in the aggregate to increasing representation of women and minorities. I can't be certain that holds over a marketing context, but I also can't find any reason not to generalize.
> there's no evidence that white males react negatively in the aggregate to increasing representation of women and minorities.
How about the over-abuncance of evidence that people (or at least a big part of people who visit these forums) react bad to change?
> I can't be certain that holds over a marketing context, but I also can't find any reason not to generalize.
Yes, but how many months/years have sought? We're talking about a big mutlinational here, so I'm sure you understand that they'll probably want some more evidence then "can't find any reason not to generalize"
Qube's block builder: if you want to create blocks for powers, items and monsters for this forum, but don't know html "Signature in a box"Show
For years, I've lived a double life. In the day, I do my job - I ride the bus, roll up my sleeves with the hoi-polloi. But at night, I live a life of exhilaration, of missed heartbeats and adrenalin. And, if the truth be known a life of dubious virtue. I won't deny it - I've been engaged in violence, even indulged in it. I've maimed and killed adversaries, and not merely in self-defence. I've exhibited disregard for life, limb and property, and savoured every moment. You may not think it, to look of me but I have commanded armies, and conquered worlds. And though in achieving these things I've set morality aside, I have no regrets. For though I've led a double life, at least I can say - I've lived.
Scipio: And Chihuahuas have definitely improved in the "attacking ankles, yapping, and being generally annoying" environment. Me: OK, am I the only who sees an analogy between forum trolls & Chihuahuas?
XDMC 19 (silver): A full fledged assassins guild (with stats, skill challenges, ...)link XDMC 14 (Bronze): a one shot campaign for beginning DMs/players. link XDMC 16: Paragon path: the Epitome: being better then all then any one else. link (note: this is balanced) XDMC 25: The Gelatinous Cube mount Guide To Disreality: a collection of houserules - Introduction & table of content
They're both frequently employed and either inaccurate or inconsequential. For instance, "you're looking so hard for racism that you'll find it in places where it doesn't exist!" is belied by the fact that every person of color who has chosen to identify him or herself as such in this thread has been on the side of "yeah, it really would be nice to see some heroes who look more like me".
But not all have been on the side of "they need to show some hero's more like me". A need implies some kind of failure or wrong-doing on Wizards part that must be corrected, would be nice implies a slight shift in perception that would only add to the game, not correct some kind of failing. Again, those of us who are defending WotC are defending against the accusations that WotC has done something wrong, that they have been discriminatory (intentional or not). you need to stop mixing these two arguments up.
I wish there were a less blunt way to put this, but you've deployed this argument several times, and it's dumb. Prejudice against amphibians is not a real thing that happens in the real world; moreover, amphibians aren't sentient beings, so discriminating against them categorically is okay with me.
Unless you're deliberately trying to suggest that bias against people of color is no more important than bias against Kermit the Frog, you ought to drop this absurd and repeated analogy.
The absence of overweight heroes still stands, despite someone (else) trying to rationalize and hand-wave it away (funny the double standard, some accusations of discrimination are seen as horrid, while others don't matter because the person crying for attention can think of a rationalization that suits them).
In my recollection (my 3.5 books except for the Rules Compendium and a couple of adventures are in storage) 3.x did a much better job than 4e on this subject. As you mentioned, Ember was unambiguously not white, and she popped up all over the place. Alhandra was more middle Eastern to me, but at least the iconics made a nod toward diversity. That's not to say they did a superb job, but I don't think the 3.5 books were as whitewashed as 4e has been.
You sure it's not your own perception that's whitewashed? That in your effort to find discrimination to stamp out wherever you can, that your perceiving anything you can't clearly define as being white (which is no better then what you claim WotC is doing, IE, failing to give credit to the ethnicity's other then that which your identifying with, by the by). There are 3 dwarves in the PHB1 that I identify as being "of colour", I'm curious if you can see them as such as well? What 3 dwarves am I speaking of?
Disclaimer for the rhetorically uninclined: I am NOT saying that 3.5 was perfect, or that someone deliberately eliminated representations of people of color from 4e artwork. There is a difference between an instance of bias or racism existing, and accusing someone of deliberate and premeditated bigotry.
Can I take this as you also claiming (an instance of) discrimination on WotC's part?
As has been mentioned multiple times in the thread, part of the problem is that the text (of 4e) makes it abundantly clear that humans come in the all of the normal range of human colors--but the art doesn't match the text.
So, this sentence is ether claiming that no diversity whatsoever exists in the artwork, or that some indication of how that range of skin colours is actually dispersed in the world is found in the text. Can you please clarify which, and if it's the later, then please provide a rules quote and page number. because the only thing I see in the text is an indication that varying skin-tones exist, not an indication of a ratio, that's left to the DM to clarify in his world building.
I know I come off as Hostile and abrasive. It is not my intention to do so, I am just a very emotionally driven individual. I apologize if I come off as such to you and ask that you please don't take it personally, as I can assure you, it is not intended as such. --------------------------------------------------------- duel colourShow
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
There is no racial prejudice in D&D, only what people bring with them.
The reason the "Racism Bingo" meme exists is that, as several people have pointed out multiple times, the same set of arguments tends to get trotted out any time you point out even unintentional bias.
Just because they get trotted out doesn't make them inaccurate.
They're both frequently employed and either inaccurate or inconsequential. For instance, "you're looking so hard for racism that you'll find it in places where it doesn't exist!" is belied by the fact that every person of color who has chosen to identify him or herself as such in this thread has been on the side of "yeah, it really would be nice to see some heroes who look more like me".
Overwieght, middle age, poorly dressed & with a neck beard? Because that seems to be what a good deal of the old school D&Ders look like. I don't see them on any cover pages either.
The fact that Grippli do not appear on the front cover of any D&D book ever, doesn't make WotC prejudice against amphibians. People need to get over themselves.
I wish there were a less blunt way to put this, but you've deployed this argument several times, and it's dumb. Prejudice against amphibians is not a real thing that happens in the real world; moreover, amphibians aren't sentient beings, so discriminating against them categorically is okay with me.
Unless you're deliberately trying to suggest that bias against people of color is no more important than bias against Kermit the Frog, you ought to drop this absurd and repeated analogy.
yet it has yet to be refuted by anyone here. I actually had a big list of things that did not appear on a 4E cover, but the Grippli is the one i stuck with because it is the silliest & showcases my point the best. The fact that there are no Grippli, does not immediately make the writers or artists at WotC racist against amphibian people. The fact that amphibian people do not exist doesn't change the fact that if they did this still would not be discrimination. If you actually take your time to look at the cover art work & move beyond the "it must be racism" concept, there is a formula they have been using, which i equate to a simple sentence: Dont use humans.
If you look at 4E artwork there is more time spent on other races... heck the PHB had 1 human on the cover; A hispanic looking woman. Thats a pretty good start for equality as far as i can see. Most of the rest of the art is focused on the other races for the most part & i don't so much think that there was a deliberate attempt to keep ethnicities out, i personally just think that the 4E artists, just can't draw ethnicities to the point where anyone would notice (yeah i hate the majority of 4E art, it leaves me feeling mildy pissed off).
-M
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
When the forces of stupid collide, magical things happen. And by magical, I mean ******* moronic. - Anon
Am I the only one who finds it more than slightly ironic that, despite their insistence that they want and value our opinions and POVs on this issue, the "pro diversity" White people are spending more time and energy engaging with the nay-sayers than with us?
Probably because it's more interesting to argue with someone than it is to say 'I agree'.
Re: the woman on the PH cover - I assumed she was white too. I'm white with a light olive complexion as you might be able to tell from my avatar.
I found this link over at the Escapist with regard to race in video and console games. I thought it was somewhat pertinent to the discussion here.
The enemy wasn't men, or women, or the old, or even the dead. It was just bleedin' stupid people, who came in all varieties. And no one had the right to be stupid. - Terry Pratchett
The racial bias inherent in the arguments of those opposed to the OP, in my mind, illustrate both the OP's point and the need for this conversation in the RPG community.
There is a racial bias inherent in the broad community of rpg players and in all of the products that are produced for those players. It is a community that is predominantly white, male, and middle-class. For the hobby to appeal to a broader populace, it must diversify in its image creation, so that potential customers who are not white, male, and middle-class are more able to identify with the product and try it out as a hobby.
Gaming itself is very widespread in the US across ethnic, gender, age, and economic backgrounds, primarily in the form of console gaming. RPGs will always have a much smaller segment of that gaming population as hobbyists, due to many factors of the hobby, but in order for it to begin capturing a larger segment of that broader population its depictions will need to be diversified and broadened.
To disagree with this obvious fact is to approach the issue with blinders on, and is insensitive to the experience of people who are not white, male, and middle class.
I base my above observations on 30 years of involvement in the hobby, including running a hobby store in an ethnically diverse neighborhood, town, and region. My store staffed white and black men and women, and had customers of multiple ethnicities and both genders, but the non-white gamers who came into our store were predominantly there for console games, sports cards, and the occasional comic book, while the white gamers were there for those things and boardgames, rpgs, and paintball/airsoft. The proportion of non-white players of rpgs or the collectible card and miniatures games was infinitesmally small, despite the majority of people patronizing the store being non-white and the "hobby" section of the store (boardgames, rpgs, CCGs) accounting for 25-30% of total business.
To disagree with this obvious fact is to approach the issue with blinders on
a dangerous thing to do, calling your post a 'obvious fact'.
For example, this:
in order for it to begin capturing a larger segment of that broader population its depictions will need to be diversified and broadened.
Is this a fact? how do you figure this is the best only* for WotC to increase sales**?
(* 'will need to' implies this, no?) (** income is much more important then size of the target audience)
Qube's block builder: if you want to create blocks for powers, items and monsters for this forum, but don't know html "Signature in a box"Show
For years, I've lived a double life. In the day, I do my job - I ride the bus, roll up my sleeves with the hoi-polloi. But at night, I live a life of exhilaration, of missed heartbeats and adrenalin. And, if the truth be known a life of dubious virtue. I won't deny it - I've been engaged in violence, even indulged in it. I've maimed and killed adversaries, and not merely in self-defence. I've exhibited disregard for life, limb and property, and savoured every moment. You may not think it, to look of me but I have commanded armies, and conquered worlds. And though in achieving these things I've set morality aside, I have no regrets. For though I've led a double life, at least I can say - I've lived.
Scipio: And Chihuahuas have definitely improved in the "attacking ankles, yapping, and being generally annoying" environment. Me: OK, am I the only who sees an analogy between forum trolls & Chihuahuas?
XDMC 19 (silver): A full fledged assassins guild (with stats, skill challenges, ...)link XDMC 14 (Bronze): a one shot campaign for beginning DMs/players. link XDMC 16: Paragon path: the Epitome: being better then all then any one else. link (note: this is balanced) XDMC 25: The Gelatinous Cube mount Guide To Disreality: a collection of houserules - Introduction & table of content
Re: the woman on the PH cover - I assumed she was white too. I'm white with a light olive complexion as you might be able to tell from my avatar.
Just goes to show that people only see what they want to. I see here as being of the ethnic group we here in our world would call hispanic. No such people would exist in D&D so it would be called something else. The fact is her appearance need not have anything to do with our world analogues.
I found this link over at the Escapist with regard to race in video and console games. I thought it was somewhat pertinent to the discussion here.
Except thats not pertinent at all. I get those articles too & there were 5 of them discussing people being forced to play the hetrosexual white male cliche. D&D by contrast forces no such thing. The DM is not a preprogrammed computer incapable of apply a simple palet swap, or running the game a litte differently, which backs up my previous statement of:
The racial bias inherent in the arguments of those opposed to the OP, in my mind, illustrate both the OP's point and the need for this conversation in the RPG community.
We're not opposed, we are just pointing out that the OP is wrong. Just because we are pointing out that the OP is wrong doesn't mean we are opposed to diversity.
There is a racial bias inherent in the broad community of rpg players and in all of the products that are produced for those players. It is a community that is predominantly white, male, and middle-class. For the hobby to appeal to a broader populace, it must diversify in its image creation, so that potential customers who are not white, male, and middle-class are more able to identify with the product and try it out as a hobby.
Thats not a racial bias... thats just a group of people who are interested in a thing. The same claims used to be made by women all the time that there was a gender bias due to the artwork not depicting women respectfully & that was why there was an assumed "gender bias" in the player base. So 3.5 the artwork changed & 10 years later the player base is still essentially the same. Don't mix correlation up with causation.
Gaming itself is very widespread in the US across ethnic, gender, age, and economic backgrounds, primarily in the form of console gaming. RPGs will always have a much smaller segment of that gaming population as hobbyists, due to many factors of the hobby, but in order for it to begin capturing a larger segment of that broader population its depictions will need to be diversified and broadened.
There is no reason to believe this, in fact theres a whole heap of reasons to believe that it would not draw any more of an audience. After all 3.5 was a hell of a lot more diverse then 4E in its depiction of non-white people & you didn't suddenly see a sudden influx of people of colour playing the game.
To disagree with this obvious fact is to approach the issue with blinders on, and is insensitive to the experience of people who are not white, male, and middle class.
i'm sorry, what? How is a book that has nothing to do with this reality "insensitive to the experience of people who are not white, male, and middle class." Next you'll be telling me that Magic: TG is responsible for child sex slavery & that pokemon gave your sister the reach around.
I base my above observations on 30 years of involvement in the hobby, including running a hobby store in an ethnically diverse neighborhood, town, and region.
Really, i based my observations on fact & common sense.
My store staffed white and black men and women, and had customers of multiple ethnicities and both genders, but the non-white gamers who came into our store were predominantly there for console games, sports cards, and the occasional comic book, while the white gamers were there for those things and boardgames, rpgs, and paintball/airsoft. The proportion of non-white players of rpgs or the collectible card and miniatures games was infinitesmally small, despite the majority of people patronizing the store being non-white and the "hobby" section of the store (boardgames, rpgs, CCGs) accounting for 25-30% of total business.
and... so what? Thats not a form of racism, its a personal choice. I am interested in the thing i am interested in... doesn't mean that WotC is now a front for the KKK.
-M
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
When the forces of stupid collide, magical things happen. And by magical, I mean ******* moronic. - Anon
I wish there were a less blunt way to put this, but you've deployed this argument several times, and it's dumb. Prejudice against amphibians is not a real thing that happens in the real world; moreover, amphibians aren't sentient beings, so discriminating against them categorically is okay with me.
Unless you're deliberately trying to suggest that bias against people of color is no more important than bias against Kermit the Frog, you ought to drop this absurd and repeated analogy.
yet it has yet to be refuted by anyone here. I actually had a big list of things that did not appear on a 4E cover, but the Grippli is the one i stuck with because it is the silliest & showcases my point the best. The fact that there are no Grippli, does not immediately make the writers or artists at WotC racist against amphibian people. The fact that amphibian people do not exist doesn't change the fact that if they did this still would not be discrimination.
You did have a big list of things that don't appear on a 4e cover (or, in fact, anywhere in the art for 4e--since it's important to note that the discussion here is not limited to the cover art). Here's your list:
Theres also no pictures of hermaphrodites, frog people, tasmanians, blue people, nazis, apples, ray comfort, young earth creationists, characters from x-men, wolverine (though this would make this the only publication that doesn't seem to have him on the cover), statue of liberty, darn dirty apes who need to take there hands offa me, amazon.com logos, commercials about Visa Debit cards, mobile phones, people complaining about the iphone deathgrip, gnome ninjas, hugh jackman, all the red states, all the blue states & jeff that darn wiggle who sleeps to much.
Let's apply your method of determining discrimination to some other situations:
It doesn't matter that black people aren't allowed to eat in this restaurant. Neither are frog people, Wolverine, the color purple, or the Statue of Liberty--and I don't see Jeff the Wiggle here, either. But no one would claim the owners are discriminating against frog people!
Sure, the only black or Hispanic people you see at this country club are cooking the food and cleaning the toilets. But hey, you don't see any amazon.com logos, darn dirty apes, nazis, or blue people golfing here either--so clearly our membership policy isn't racist.
So what if the state governor is standing in the front door of a schoolhouse preventing two black kids from entering? He also wouldn't let in any gnome ninjas, blue states, or Visa commercials, so clearly he's not tying his political career to maintaining segregation!
Do you really not see how your argument is utterly unrelated to the subject at hand? We aren't worried about depictions of Grippli or Hugh Jackman or mobile phones because the text in our books doesn't describe them making up a portion of the population, nor are they players of D&D who might aspire to having heroes that resemble them.
. It was chocolate chip and very sweet. 
