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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:01AM
#31
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Interestingly those 3 words come up quite often when they are discussing essentials. Their exact meaning is as of yet pretty unclear and IMHO it is precisely this unclearity that is at the basis of many of the discussions here. I think the fact that they mention adding rarity qualifiers to existing material is quite interesting in that regard.
You're not helping  .
In all seriousness, I gotta agree they're not very clear when they say stuff like Essentials will inform designs going forward (to paraphrase). Clarity would certainly help and the lack of it has me wondering why.
/\ Art
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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:02AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2007
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@Ignis: I don't believe so (unclear, and no reason). They have said it repeatedly - this is a "new direction going forward". The phrase "Starting with essentials" reinforces that fact.
edited: grammar.
Let me rephrase for clarity: it is not so much that I debate the meaning of those words, but their impact. The October updates will be critical in that regard. For example, will it update the create magic item ritual to prevent you from making uncommon items?
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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:07AM
#33
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Wow so if a DM doesn't give a player everything he wants, then he is a **** DM?
Nice.
If I gave my players everything they wanted they'd be touting swords of decapitation, staves of the magi, Vecna's eye and hand, and all kinds of artifcacts. Because it's fun.
I reccomend anybody who has this idea that players should get whatever they want DM their own game and let the players get everything that they want. That way they can have fun.
The wheel spins both ways my friend about what is or is not a **** player/DM.
If you find Essentials to be STUPID, INFERIOR, LAME, pick whatever derrogatory word you wish, then by all means see yourself to another game and set of forums with something that you like. Otherwise I fear for your health, all that anger and you are prone to a heart attack or stroke at a very young and early age.
Since we're building straw man arguments, I'm going to assume your argument is "THis fighter always wants to use weapons for attacks. I'm going to demand he use lollipops instead. Won't that be fun?"
I think the argument is "there is already a parcel system that handles giving out magic items of what power level to characters". If your players are demanding level 15 items at level 5, you should not give them a that magic item. However, until September at least, every magic item at level x is supposed to be as good as every other item at level x for that slot. That's clearly not the case, but is caused much more by the fact that no one ever looks at how a particular element is really going to get used before the product (AV or Dragon Article) goes out the door.
No player should expect the DM to know what their character's items need to be. The best of my games have been where the DM asks us what item we find of a particular level, that way we're not stuck with an Amulet of Health for my Dwarven shaman or being given a symbol of hope and having to remind our DM "hey, Shaman's don't use those, but thanks for the value/5 in gp, I guess."
Now we're going to a system where you can make your own items that arent worth the gold, and wait until a DM deigns to give you something that your character can use.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:07AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2006
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wow gm for powergamers, youre the exact kind of dm i was talking about, let the guy have his magic items after all hes listening to your lame campaign and youre gonna take the magic items he wants away, id quit your sorry game. what just cause he buys them everytime you want to take them away? get over yourself
wow...just wow...
so lets get this straight... he has played 8 characters in 4e 5 in my games, 3 in others... he has played fighters, rangers, and rouges, he has always had the + damage bracers... in fact 4 of his characters even share the same name...
this has not only gotten on my nerves but my fellow players... infact he has to take the rituel caster feat to get them becuse no one else will make them for him anymore eaither...
see we all try to play diffrent characters. We have had this problem before though... (3 war priest/uber melee masters in a row from one player in 3.5) and we deal with it by asking him to stop, and letting him keep going only so far.
Now there is a in game reason why he can not always know about the apsalute best DPR build items, and just get them.
by the way his swordmage disenchanted counterstrike bracers (that another PC had on there wish list but he grabed and never told them) to make his +2 bracer into +4 bracers...
so to recap you would quite my game for nothing becuse I never took anything away... but WotC has now set it up so he doesn't have the ability to for every character...
by the way in 6 campaignes (those 8 characters becuse two permed) only 2 other PCs ever had eaither bracer set... and atleast in 2 case MY PC found other cool bracers to where...
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?
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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:10AM
#35
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so lets get this straight... he has played 8 characters in 4e 5 in my games, 3 in others... he has played fighters, rangers, and rouges, he has always had the + damage bracers... in fact 4 of his characters even share the same name...
So?
Iron Armbands of Power are the best arms slot item for those three classes and I might argue it's the best level 6 magic item for anyone who uses weapons. What would you prefer he use?
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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:16AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2009
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More categorization? I don't see the harm. I thought all magic items were "If the DM allows it" already, so... is this really even a change at all for me?
The terms are going to irk some people, because they sound like, say, collectible game pieces.
Beyond that, again, I don't see the harm. But I don't have any real interest in this either. I've already moved on to the "Inherent bonuses, and then Boons or Items that I (and the player) find interesting and/or appropriate"-system.
More Categorization is fine. Giving DM's a guide as to what are rare and powerful items, perhaps influence a limit to the number of such items in your game, not a bad idea either. Does there really need to be 4 sets of Dice of Auspicious Fortune in a party? No and its within the rights of a DM to limit items anyways as greatfrito mentioned. That said its really up to the DM and Players to find whatever works best for them. If one of my players only wants to go the way of frostcheese? Awesome! Let them, there are way for a DM to mitigate it. If 3 players want IAoP, great, give it to them. Who cares what they're ranked at. To be honest none of this junk/not junk has to affect our home games, I've resigned myself to that. Its really just RPGA folks that have to worry about strict adherence to these rules. (Didn't they say they weren't going to come up will silly rules for the small stuff for this edition?)
The coding system though is waaaaaay too much WoW, Diablo, Torchlight, etc. I mean really? Common, Uncommon, and Rare? Oh and we still have Artifacts and Vendor Trash. Well i guess it will at least make CharOp Item guides easy
Don't let WotC ruin the fun at your table with their 4e "redesign". Take the stuff you like new stats for old races, new feats, new items, new powers, etc. and leave behind the junk training wheel classes, weird item rules, free action nerfing etc.
Host of the HTL Podcast Series: http://www.holdtheline.com/media/category/htl-podcast.6/ 
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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:16AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2008
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ok wow count on essentials to screw up everything including magic items. these sound more like dark sun rules than straight up dnd rules. if these are accurate its another reason to see essentials as completely changing the game.
We do not know enough about them to say anything yet. Also tyhe odds are that they are probabilly set up so that uncommons work the same as magic items do now. You can make them but the DM can veto.
this idea, these magic item revisions, really suck, as many players have to make their own items to get around douchebag dms as it is.
Umm, saying a rule is bad because someone else is bad is not valid, and any intilligent observation will tell you that the rule is fine if it works fine with the defecient element removed.
Quite frankly, if it works fine for a decent DM with a decent group, then the rule is fine. It it causes conflicts with a bad DM then it is no the rule that needs to be changed. If it causes problems with bad players same thing.
what the team cant have a couple of the same amulets, thats another STUPID rule, thanks essentials
Where did it say that you could not get repeat items?????
Oh right, it did not. based on what we are seeing here, the only items htat getting repeats of should be difficult for are rare items, and even then the preview leaves a method for acquisition.
absolutely STUPID
and the standard insult for something that you do not persionally agree with, I am sorry but "I do not like it" is not grounds for any sensable person to lable something stupid, and no one serious should actually think they can judege something fully without having the full information, which we obviously do not have.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:19AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2006
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No player should expect the DM to know what their character's items need to be. The best of my games have been where the DM asks us what item we find of a particular level, that way we're not stuck with an Amulet of Health for my Dwarven shaman or being given a symbol of hope and having to remind our DM "hey, Shaman's don't use those, but thanks for the value/5 in gp, I guess."
um... so I agree that the wishlist is a godsend (and I use them every chance I get as a PC and a DM) but that is not nore should it be the end of the story.
FOr instunce I had a treasure parsel worth X gold, so I put a holy symbol worth 5x that in the treasure, and they disenchant it... it really makes since when they fought the priest of vecna..
I also don't put everything ont he wishlist in. I sometimes through in items I like for them too, especialy for theme reasons:
same swordmage as above had his +4 bracers and was really itchign for his +6 ones around level 19... the PC did a favor for the queen of fire (a lesser deity in the world) and as a boon she gave them each a gift. I guess he expected those bracer upgrades, but instead I gave him a weapon of summer (+1d6 fire damage on all attacks and a cool daily) he threw a fit that I would dare give him a sup optimal weapon...
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?
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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:20AM
#39
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Wow so if a DM doesn't give a player everything he wants, then he is a **** DM?
Nice.
If I gave my players everything they wanted they'd be touting swords of decapitation, staves of the magi, Vecna's eye and hand, and all kinds of artifcacts. Because it's fun.
I reccomend anybody who has this idea that players should get whatever they want DM their own game and let the players get everything that they want. That way they can have fun.
The wheel spins both ways my friend about what is or is not a **** player/DM.
If you find Essentials to be STUPID, INFERIOR, LAME, pick whatever derrogatory word you wish, then by all means see yourself to another game and set of forums with something that you like. Otherwise I fear for your health, all that anger and you are prone to a heart attack or stroke at a very young and early age.
Since we're building straw man arguments, I'm going to assume your argument is "THis fighter always wants to use weapons for attacks. I'm going to demand he use lollipops instead. Won't that be fun?"
I think the argument is "there is already a parcel system that handles giving out magic items of what power level to characters". If your players are demanding level 15 items at level 5, you should not give them a that magic item. However, until September at least, every magic item at level x is supposed to be as good as every other item at level x for that slot. That's clearly not the case, but is caused much more by the fact that no one ever looks at how a particular element is really going to get used before the product (AV or Dragon Article) goes out the door.
No player should expect the DM to know what their character's items need to be. The best of my games have been where the DM asks us what item we find of a particular level, that way we're not stuck with an Amulet of Health for my Dwarven shaman or being given a symbol of hope and having to remind our DM "hey, Shaman's don't use those, but thanks for the value/5 in gp, I guess."
Now we're going to a system where you can make your own items that arent worth the gold, and wait until a DM deigns to give you something that your character can use.
thank GOD a voice of reason
i dm a game where the players are very green. they do not have any adventurers vault etc etc and i helped make their characters. when i give them a magic item, i try to give them something useful, as if i was playing the character. bc i cant sit there on cb and just deliberately give them useless or less useful magic items bc...bc thats what a lame dm would do. i want them to have fun, not help me feel better about myself
theres already checks and balances in the game...its not like theres a magic shop on every corner. whole worlds such as dark sun have wild variety and in my home game i have completely changed the ritual structure to fit the story. but these have all worked to further a story or setting, not to just eliminate player options
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3 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2010 - 11:22AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2006
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so lets get this straight... he has played 8 characters in 4e 5 in my games, 3 in others... he has played fighters, rangers, and rouges, he has always had the + damage bracers... in fact 4 of his characters even share the same name...
So?
Iron Armbands of Power are the best arms slot item for those three classes and I might argue it's the best level 6 magic item for anyone who uses weapons. What would you prefer he use?
anything... just diffrent it is a big pet peeve of mine and about 3/4 of my players seeing the same thing over and over agian... IF this game you are a come and get it fighter with X feat and Y items... play somethign diffrent next campaing not a come and get it fighter with X feat and Y items
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?
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