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Jul 31, 2010 -- 2:23PM, rampant wrote:

I think you'll find that giving bonuses to ranged or melee attacks will pigeon hole worse than +2 dex or +2 str.

I mean a high dex character could still play melee or ranged or both depending on his classes.
With your system you're gonna make it even worse since you'll only reward the character for making use of ranged weapon attacks, and a hand-ful of at-will implement attacks.

If it's made a static bonus. The encounter power idea means a range-based character only needs to make one melee hit during a whole fight to gain the full benefit! (Unless it's against a minion, of course.)

Your point is taken, thought. I don't think it actually pidgeonholes that much since currently having a +2 STR pretty much means a melee class or the bonus is wasted - so wasting a 1-point damage bonus isn't really worse (in both cases it will benefit melee basic attacks). It will make it more obvious what the race is best for, thought. And that might not be such a good thing.

What do you think about making an encounter power for each attribute as I suggested? In that way the chance of getting to use the bonus is pretty high for all classes (since you only need one chance), but the classes that matches the bonus probably gets more use from it?

Aug 1, 2010 -- 8:24AM, rampant wrote:

I'm just not at all interested in this idea of finding one ability or set of adjustments to replace every instance of a race getting +2 to a given stat. One size doesn't fit all.

I'm liking the rebuild each race without ability score adjustments thing.

Well... We can try. How about looking at the PHB1 races for a start? We've got:

Dragonborn (STR/CHA)
Dwarf (CON/WIS)
Eladrin (DEX/INT)
Elf (DEX/WIS)
Half-elf (CON/CHA)
Halfling (DEX/CHA)
Human (one +2)
Tiefling (INT/CHA)

As general observations... Well, I can't really come up with a lot.

Dragonborn: Something to show how strong they are?
Dwarf: Obviously something really impressive toughness-wise!
Eladrin: Something with magic?
Elf: If you don't want static mods, maybe another encounter power that emphasizes their perceptive powers?
Half-elf: Uh... no idea...
Halfling: Maybe something more that plays to their small size and speed?
Human: No idea here either.
Tiefling: Maybe something "sly"? Some kind of bluff/trickery power?

Aug 1, 2010 -- 11:20AM, rampant wrote:

Well You saw What I did with the d-born. Was that a good start?

Would anyone play that instead of a normal one?

The damage resitance is a nice touch. But personally I would really have liked something to show that they're big and strong and/or have a lot of "presence".

Playing it... Well, it's going to be outclassed for a STR- or CHA-based class. Honestly, I don't think the DR and beefed-up breath is going to compete even for other classes!

Aug 1, 2010 -- 11:20AM, rampant wrote:

Dwarf:
Give a bonus on the save to avoid falling prone from Stand your  ground.
Bonuses against charms and similar mental effects
Darkvision
Ability to spend a healing surge when critted? 

I think a bonus to Stand Your Ground is a bit of overkill, I mean it should be at least possible to knock them down!

A bonus against Charm/Psychic sounds Dwarvish to me, and the last idea about spending a surge when critted sounds interesting as well. Maybe give them a few bonus healing surges as well?

Aren't you afraid that by making each power unique race is going to be even more important to optimizers then it is now? Afterall; if you want +2 Con you have a bunch of options but if you want the race that gets a certain bonus feature then there's only one choice left.

You'll have to be very careful in balancing this stuff I think. 

Well Racial Bonusses are the most important one because they're most important now. If you remove them, focus will simply shift to something else.

Instead of "Play a Goliath because you get +2 Str and +2 Con!!!" it will be "Play a Goliath because you get Resist All and +2 Melee Damage!!!"

The only way to get rid of pigeonholing is by removing powergamers, or by removing all racial features. As long as there's something distinct about races, the powergamers will base their choice solely on that distinction. It's what they do.