This is exactly the trap you'd fall into with a class based stat system. Fighters use only Strength as their primary, but use Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom as secondaries. Why would you pick Dexterity over any other?
Fighter is not the only class with three secondaries, and that doesn't even talk about the V classes. Do they get to choose from the primaries, but not a secondary? That would mean races with the secondary bonus and neither primary would end up better than those with just a primary, and equal to those with both a primary and secondary.
If you're concerned about that, and the Fighter one was just a random example, then the class +2(s) can simply be whatever the attack stat is (or a choice of one, in the case of V-classes - though those appear to be on the way out anyhow). As long as the race can pick from two then there'll always be an off-option.
No, they won't always have 'perfect' secondary lineups, but the attack stat is the one that causes real issues.
If a Halfling buys an 11+ and the Goliath dumps strength. Or even if the Goliath starts with a 14(that gets bumped to 16), and the Halfling buys 17 or 18. It's still doable now. And it would happen just as much without the stat mods thanks to the other racial traits.
I was of course assuming that both would have the same priority to the stat in question. Thought of course with my idea the Goliath with benefit from being "strong" even if he dumped his strength!
And then IMHO a massive Goliath, Dragonborn or Half-orc should be at least an as dangerous Avenger as an Elf - which they aren't as is.
Going by the outline of my ideas above Goliaths will make great Avengers, as will Elfs - but instead of them being essentially identical (same or no stat bonuses) the Goliath will have better damage and HP, the Elf will have better defences.
(Hopefully!) just as good, but different!
Except that you'd essentially totally change the racial balance.
Actually, the "absolute value" balance will only change if the new traits are unbalanced. Assuming it can be done well (and there's no reason it shouldn't be possible) then all races will still be balanced. The race choice will just have less impact on how effective the class choice will be.
+1 to melee is insanely more valuable than +1 to ranged. Well over half of the classes use melee just about exclusively, and even the portion that are ranged still use melee sometimes.
Not to mention that +1 to melee damage is also significantly better than a couple extra hit points, or really any of the other things you suggested.
I don't think you can balance this new idea of yours.
And? I stated in the OP that I was just throwing out ideas and wanted help with more ideas, and how to balance them. If +1 melee damage is extremely powerful then the bonuses for other traits have to match that, or the bonus has to be changed some way.
4e is basically a tactical wargame, and a +2 to your primary stat (+1 to hit and damage) means roughly 20% more damage to the enemy. 20%!
Er...what? 20%? How are you getting that? In reality, it's just barely 5% better. Where's your mat on this 20% figure?
Basic math: A normal character has about 50% chance of hitting. +5% hitting chance = 10% more hits.
Average damage for a normal attack is around 10, at least at heroic (IME a little less for leaders/controllers, a bit more for strikers). +1 damage means 10% more damage to the target(s).
Sum: ~20% more damage to the target(s). Of course it drops at higher levels due to other damage bonuses - at the top of epic level a +2 to primary stat nets you only a little more than 10% more damage. But as far as I can see most games are played at heroic up to paragon level, where the damage increase is significant.
I'd be more careful with statements like that if I were you.
I was careful - I could have said "it is a tactical wargame". But it's got enough support for non-combat actions that that would be a lie.
But it is very heavily weighted towards combat and conflicts - you don't see many threads about how to optimize your merchant character in the optimization forums, do you? The rulebooks make that clear as well, the space taken up by pure combat rules outweight the rest several times over (yes, combat power lists do count!).
Of course you can roleplay just as much in 4e as in any other game. But then you're not relly using the game, you're pretty much freeforming with a 4e character sheet in front of you. I roleplay just as much when playing Imperial Starfire (strategic space combat wargame). But I sure don't count ISF as a RPG!
...a +2 to your primary stat (+1 to hit and damage) means roughly 20% more damage to the enemy. 20%!
That sounds like quite a dramatic exaggeration to me. Unless you can show me some math, I have no idea where you pulled that number from. Of course, this depend on the characters' levels. I could even maybe believe the difference to be that big at level 1, but I don't buy that it'll last much longer than that.
See above. But true, I was really only looking at heroic level - it drops fiarly linearly towards ~10% better at level 30.
The "Very Strong" example I posted wouldn't make any difference - if it only applied to STR-based classes! However when it applies to all melee damage things changes a lot! Yes, a Goliath still won't be as good at ranged combat, but IME even dedicated ranged fighters make melee attacks fairly often.
If "+2 STR" was pigeon-holing Goliaths into melee classes before, then how do you think that "+1 to melee damage" is going to look? At least with +2 STR and +2 CON Goliaths could make good Warlocks, Wizards, Bards, Druids, Invokers, Shamans, Sorcerers, Artificers, and Seekers too due to getting secondary ability score boosts (primary for the Warlock!). With "Very Strong", the Goliath offers almost nothing at all to these classes.
As said, +2 STR doesn't push a race towards melee classes, it pushes them towards Strength classes. And far stronger than just +1 damage does, since the STR bonus gives +1 damage and +1 attack!
I'd also dispute that Goliaths make good Wizards, Bards or any WIS-based class. -1 to hit and damage with all class powers! And it's even worse for controller or leader classes which typically have lower damage to start with!
They don't get an int bonus, that is not the same thing as a penalty.
The idea of using features instead of ability score adjustments is a marvelous idea. However let's not turn around and make the same mistakes you complain of from the ability scores.
You believe ability scores pigeon-hole races into certain classes. Thus the system you replace them with should not.
Things like melee or ranged damage bonuses are just as bad if not worse, because they force specialization down to not just whole classes but specific builds and powers within those classes.
Looking at the alternat goliath you have I think if you drop melee damage boost you can increase the other bonuses, and possibly add another racial power or power like feature.
As said, +2 STR doesn't push a race towards melee classes, it pushes them towards Strength classes.
But that push isn't as dramatic as you think that it is. If you think that this slight push towards STR-using classes is bad, consider that at least classes that don't use STR do actually benefit from having a STR boost (Fortitude defense, Athletics skill checks, carrying capacity, etc.). Compare this to +1 to melee damage rolls? That's something that non-melee character don't ever benefit from at all. Your proposal pigeon-holes characters waaay worse than they already are. You've gone from a race that still has excuses to play non-STR- and non-CON-based classes to a race that has no excuse not to play a melee class. You are doing the opposite of what you want to do.
I'd also dispute that Goliaths make good Wizards, Bards or any WIS-based class. -1 to hit and damage with all class powers!
A) Goliaths also have a CON bonus. This means that they have a secondary stat boost for Wizards (Staff of Defense, Tome of Binding), Bards (Virtue of Valor), Druids (Primal Guardian, Primal Swarm), Invokers (Covenant of Wrath, Covenant of Malediction), Shamans (Protector Spirit, World Speaker Spirit), and Artificers. That STR boost also gives them the secondary stat boosts for Sorcerer (Dragon Magic, Cosmic Magic) and Seeker (Spiritbond). And these are all non-melee classes. If I also include melee classes that are not STR- or CON-primary, I can also add in Rogue (Brutal Scoundrel, Ruthless Ruffian), Swordmage, Ardent (Mantle of Elation), Monk (Stone Fist), and Assassin (Bleak Disciple). In fact, the only classes that don't use neither STR nor CON for any of their class abilities are Avenger and Psion, and even they both benefit from +2 STR and +2 CON in the form of +1 to Fortitude defense, +1 to Athletics and Endurance skill checks, increased carrying capacity, +1 Hit Point, +1/4 to Healing Surge value, and +1 Healing Surge per day. That still sounds like a bunch of bonuses to me.
B) Not getting a bonus is not the same as getting a penalty. The Goliath has zero penalties to playing "Wizards, Bards or any WIS-based class", not a single one.
And it's even worse for controller or leader classes which typically have lower damage to start with!
Controller and Leader classes are typically less concerned with their damage output to begin with.
Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha
Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.
Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
They don't get an int bonus, that is not the same thing as a penalty.
The idea of using features instead of ability score adjustments is a marvelous idea. However let's not turn around and make the same mistakes you complain of from the ability scores.
You believe ability scores pigeon-hole races into certain classes. Thus the system you replace them with should not.
Things like melee or ranged damage bonuses are just as bad if not worse, because they force specialization down to not just whole classes but specific builds and powers within those classes.
Looking at the alternat goliath you have I think if you drop melee damage boost you can increase the other bonuses, and possibly add another racial power or power like feature.
Sure Goliaths - and any other race without an INT bonus - gets a -1 penalty. Game design 101: Do not compare with the average, compare with the extreme.
Having 2 less INT than the best races is functionally equivelent to having a -1 penalty. That's a fact, not an opinion. Just try giving every race without an INT bonus -2 to INT and remove the INT bonus to those who have. Game works exactly the same.
As for damage bonus, maybe +1 melee is bad - since it pushes the race towards half the available classes (at least at low levels, where the bonus is significant). But compared to pushing them towards, what, 6 out of 30 (?) classes as the STR bonus does? One similar possibility would be a per encounter melee bonus, which should be much more useful to non-melee classes.
As said, +2 STR doesn't push a race towards melee classes, it pushes them towards Strength classes.
But that push isn't as dramatic as you think that it is. If you think that this slight push towards STR-using classes is bad, consider that at least classes that don't use STR do actually benefit from having a STR boost (Fortitude defense, Athletics skill checks, carrying capacity, etc.). Compare this to +1 to melee damage rolls? That's something that non-melee character don't ever benefit from at all. Your proposal pigeon-holes characters waaay worse than they already are. You've gone from a race that still has excuses to play non-STR- and non-CON-based classes to a race that has no excuse not to play a melee class. You are doing the opposite of what you want to do.
...and my basic idea was that races with a STR bonus would still get several STR-based benefits, such as defenses.
Which means that by your logic my original hypothetical example would be functionally identical to a STR bonus for all non-melee classes, slightly worse for STR-based classes, and slightly better for non-STR-based melee classes.
I'd also dispute that Goliaths make good Wizards, Bards or any WIS-based class. -1 to hit and damage with all class powers!
A) Goliaths also have a CON bonus. This means that they have a secondary stat boost for Wizards (Staff of Defense, Tome of Binding), Bards (Virtue of Valor), Druids (Primal Guardian, Primal Swarm), Invokers (Covenant of Wrath, Covenant of Malediction), Shamans (Protector Spirit, World Speaker Spirit), and Artificers. That STR boost also gives them the secondary stat boosts for Sorcerer (Dragon Magic, Cosmic Magic) and Seeker (Spiritbond). And these are all non-melee classes. If I also include melee classes that are not STR- or CON-primary, I can also add in Rogue (Brutal Scoundrel, Ruthless Ruffian), Swordmage, Ardent (Mantle of Elation), Monk (Stone Fist), and Assassin (Bleak Disciple). In fact, the only classes that don't use neither STR nor CON for any of their class abilities are Avenger and Psion, and even they both benefit from +2 STR and +2 CON in the form of +1 to Fortitude defense, +1 to Athletics and Endurance skill checks, increased carrying capacity, +1 Hit Point, +1/4 to Healing Surge value, and +1 Healing Surge per day. That still sounds like a bunch of bonuses to me.
B) Not getting a bonus is not the same as getting a penalty. The Goliath has zero penalties to playing "Wizards, Bards or any WIS-based class", not a single one.
A) those bonuses are very minor compared to +1 attack and damaged. They're nice to have, but it's going to take some pretty darn extreme builds to have a major impact on the character's performance!
And of course my idea assumes that the races would still get many of the benefits of their attribute bonuses.
B) See above. To put it simply, you're wrong. If x = y+1 then also x-1 = y.
Having 2 less INT than the best races is functionally equivelent to having a -1 penalty. That's a fact, not an opinion. Just try giving every race without an INT bonus -2 to INT and remove the INT bonus to those who have. Game works exactly the same.
Hardly the same, since all Wizards now have a -1 to hit over all other classes.
Also, thinking from the extreme only works if you're trying to win, which D&D is not about. There's optimizers call D&D "easy" and DMs have to resort to using n+5 encounters to challenge them.
It's because the game is designed around being optimized averagely, not extremely.
Epic Dungeon Master
Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!
...and my basic idea was that races with a STR bonus would still get several STR-based benefits, such as defenses.
But not anything related to class features and rider effects. That's a problem.
Which means that by your logic my original hypothetical example would be functionally identical to a STR bonus for all non-melee classes
As there are non-melee classes that still use STR for rider effects, it is objectively inferior.
slightly worse for STR-based classes
Yes, it is worse.
and slightly better for non-STR-based melee classes.
No, many non-STR-based melee classes such as Rogue and Monk use STR for rider effects that are superior to simply getting +1 to melee damage rolls. Your version is just worse for almost everybody while also pigeon-holing in a much stronger way.
Sure Goliaths - and any other race without an INT bonus - gets a -1 penalty. Game design 101: Do not compare with the average, compare with the extreme.
Having 2 less INT than the best races is functionally equivelent to having a -1 penalty. That's a fact, not an opinion.
B) See above. To put it simply, you're wrong. If x = y+1 then also x-1 = y.
If you're so far gone that you really believe this, then I'm afraid that none of us can help you.
Everybody but Dragonborn gets a -1 penalty to attack while bloodied. Everybody but Dwarves gets a -5 penalty to saves versus poison effects. Everybody gets -1 trained skills except for Eladrin. Everybody but Elf gets a -1 penalty to speed. Everybody but Half-Elf is restricted to taking racial feats from two fewer races than normal. Everybody but Halflings have a -2 penalty to AC against opportunity attacks. Everybody but Humans get 1 fewer class at will power. Everybody but Tieflings get vulnerability to fire equal to 5 + 1/2 level. Everybody but Deva gets a -1 penalty to defenses against attacks made by bloodied creatures. Everybody but Gnomes can use Ghost Sound one fewer time per encounter. Everybody but Goliath have to roll one fewer die to jump or climb. Everybody but Half-Orc gets -2 speed while charging. Everybody but Shifter take either a -2 penalty to melee attack rolls and 2 ongoing damage while bloodied or -1 AC and Reflex and -2 speed while bloodied. Everybody but Githzerai takes a -2 penalty to initiative checks. Everybody but Minotaurs has a one healing surge penalty. Everybody but Shardmind has scaling psychic vulnerability. Everybody but Drow treats everybody has having total concealment in darkness. Everybody but Genasi has 8 fewer racial power options at first level. Everybody but Changelings takes a -5 penalty to bluff checks to impersonate somebody. Everybody but Kalashtar makes one fewer save against dazing and dominating effects. Everybody but Warforged take a -10 penalty on death saving throws.
My lord, typing all of that was depressing. Your perspective is absolutely dismal. You need lots of hugs.
Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha
Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.
Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
