IMHO the attribute modifiers is the #1 "pidgeon-holeing" factor for races in 4e. There are some exceptions (like Dwarf Fighters), but generally chosing a race that doesn't have a +2 bonus to your class primary stat is a really bad idea.
I could see just dropping the attribute modifiers, but that makes a lot of races rather bland IMHO. Halflings just as strong as Goliaths? That just doesn't sit right with me...
So I was thinking, could attribute modifiers be replaced with more general racial traits? Instead of remaking every race with some unique traits to replace attribute modifiers, making up six (sets of) traits, one for each attribute?
Something along the lines of:
Very Strong: +1 to Fortitude defense, +1 Melee damage, +1 to grabs and bull rush attempts, +20 lbs carrying capacity.
Instead of a straight +2 to Strength.
The idea being that the modifiers should be general enough to cover a wide varety of classes. F.ex. strong races could get +1 to all melee damage no matter what stat the attack power is based on, which should be useful (althought to a very limited degree) even for ranged classes.
But I'm having trouble figuring out what the other attributes could remade as... Bonus to ranged damage seems like a logical DEX feature. CHA might give a bonus to Charm effects? CON... just a couple of extra HP? INT, WIS... Maybe somthing with saving throws?
Does this seem like a workable idea? And does anyone have ideas for how to do it?
Wouldn't the easiest thing be to just give every race (even humans) two floating +2 bonuses? I mean, that'd solve pretty much all the issues.
Or, to keep humans as the versatile guys, give everybody one fixed and one floating, like the PHB3 races, except that the floating can be anything rather than a choice between two, and humans would just have two floating bonuses. That way no matter what class and race you choose to play you can always get a +2 to your primary stat, but Goliaths can still have +2 Str to show that they're generally stronger than Halflings.
Corriver's Lantern - a D&D blog featuring the Frozen Over Campaign Setting. I am not anonymous. I am Colin B. Schaeffer.
Wouldn't the easiest thing be to just give every race (even humans) two floating +2 bonuses? I mean, that'd solve pretty much all the issues.
Or, to keep humans as the versatile guys, give everybody one fixed and one floating, like the PHB3 races, except that the floating can be anything rather than a choice between two, and humans would just have two floating bonuses. That way no matter what class and race you choose to play you can always get a +2 to your primary stat, but Goliaths can still have +2 Str to show that they're generally stronger than Halflings.
Well, the beauty of the way races are designed (or at least the well designed ones, like Goliaths) is that even without actually getting a +2 bonus to Strength 100% of the time, they are still far more likely to be Strong than Halflings, and the average Goliath will be stronger than the average Halfling. And even without the strength bonus, they will still come across as stronger in game.
For example: Goliaths are built towards using two-handed weapons. So far, the only classes that can really take advantage of two-handed weapons (excepting the Ardent, Assassin, and Avenger) are those that use Strength. And when using big two-handed weapons, even without actually using the Strength attribute, it still appears strong. On top of that, Goliaths also get a benefit with Athletics checks, so they'll still appear stronger.
Meanwhile, Halflings are small, which means they are penalized when using weapons, especially big ones. The only classes that use Strength are ones that generally want bigger weapons. Thus, it is most likely that Halflings will not play those classes, and will thus not put their bonuses into Strength.
So, you'll still have Goliaths generally be stronger than Halflings, which is exactly what you have now, as nothing stops a Halfling from buying an 18 Strength while a Goliath puts his 8 in Strength. The only difference will be that the strongest Goliath will no longer be stronger than the strongest Halfling, and the weakest Halfling will no longer be weaker than the weakest Goliath. That's it.
IMHO the attribute modifiers is the #1 "pidgeon-holeing" factor for races in 4e. There are some exceptions (like Dwarf Fighters), but generally chosing a race that doesn't have a +2 bonus to your class primary stat is a really bad idea.
I have to disagree with your premise. Multiple people can tell you that I hate racial pigeon-holing to the point where I alter most races to further get away from it (eliminate small size weapon restrictions, allow all racial attack powers to use the character's highest ability score, alter or replace features only useful to some classes or roles, etc.). But I don't think that racial ability score modifiers do that as much as most people think that they do. Rather, the real problem here is that people think that getting +1 to their primary and secondary ability score modifiers is waaay more significant than it really is. Sure, if you're on the Character Optimization boards, every point counts, but for most real games, a Goliath Barbarian honestly won't be thaaat much more competant than a Deva Barbarian will. Now, if INT and WIS did absolutely nothing for a Barbarian, then that would be a different story, but the beauty of ability scores is that they all do something for everybody, even if only in the form of improving skill checks.
That being said, because this flawed perception is a problem that is extremely difficult to fix, I think that the idea of giving every race one static ability score boost and one floating ability score boost, as Fedosu suggested, is probably the best option if it's really a big problem for your group. I don't, however, think that racial features like Very Strong do anything at all to fix the perceived problem. If the perception before was that Goliaths are only good at playing melee classes, then giving them a racial features that grants +1 to melee attack and damage doesn't really do anything at all to change that. (EDIT: In fact, it actually makes the problem worse by making the Goliath's melee focus explicit instead of merely incidental.)
Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha
Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.
Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I think you're all missing a point, here... I want to lessen the race-class link that currently exists, without making every race almost identical. Which is a result of giving everyone one or two floating bonuses (or just removing the bonuses).
I concede that small races are unlikely to be good STR-based fighters as they can't use good weapons, but with floating stat bonuses you can still see a, f.ex., a Halfling two-blade ranger that can outwrestle a Goliath!
And then IMHO a massive Goliath, Dragonborn or Half-orc should be at least an as dangerous Avenger as an Elf - which they aren't as is.
Going by the outline of my ideas above Goliaths will make great Avengers, as will Elfs - but instead of them being essentially identical (same or no stat bonuses) the Goliath will have better damage and HP, the Elf will have better defences.
IMHO the attribute modifiers is the #1 "pidgeon-holeing" factor for races in 4e. There are some exceptions (like Dwarf Fighters), but generally chosing a race that doesn't have a +2 bonus to your class primary stat is a really bad idea.
I have to disagree with your premise. Multiple people can tell you that I hate racial pigeon-holing to the point where I alter most races to further get away from it (eliminate small size weapon restrictions, allow all racial attack powers to use the character's highest ability score, alter or replace features only useful to some classes or roles, etc.). But I don't think that racial ability score modifiers do that as much as most people think that they do. Rather, the real problem here is that people think that getting +1 to their primary and secondary ability score modifiers is waaay more significant than it really is. Sure, if you're on the Character Optimization boards, every point counts, but for most real games, a Goliath Barbarian honestly won't be thaaat much more competant than a Deva Barbarian will. Now, if INT and WIS did absolutely nothing for a Barbarian, then that would be a different story, but the beauty of ability scores is that they all do something for everybody, even if only in the form of improving skill checks.
4e is basically a tactical wargame, and a +2 to your primary stat (+1 to hit and damage) means roughly 20% more damage to the enemy. 20%!
That's not a minor difference, that's like fighting at one level below the one on your character sheet!
Sure you get some secondary scores, but a +1 to one NAD and +1 to a couple of skills don't really help.
That being said, because this flawed perception is a problem that is extremely difficult to fix, I think that the idea of giving every race one static ability score boost and one floating ability score boost, as Fedosu suggested, is probably the best option if it's really a big problem for your group. I don't, however, think that racial features like Very Strong do anything at all to fix the perceived problem. If the perception before was that Goliaths are only good at playing melee classes, then giving them a racial features that grants +1 to melee attack and damage doesn't really do anything at all to change that.
The "Very Strong" example I posted wouldn't make any difference - if it only applied to STR-based classes! However when it applies to all melee damage things changes a lot! Yes, a Goliath still won't be as good at ranged combat, but IME even dedicated ranged fighters make melee attacks fairly often.
So you could make a Goliath Avenger, give him 18 WIS, and reap some benefit from your massive build. While the Elf, rather than just being better (20 WIS, thought with slightly worse basic melee attacks), ends up with 18 WIS as well, a little less damage, but other advantages!
I concede that small races are unlikely to be good STR-based fighters as they can't use good weapons, but with floating stat bonuses you can still see a, f.ex., a Halfling two-blade ranger that can outwrestle a Goliath!
You already can...? If a Halfling buys an 11+ and the Goliath dumps strength. Or even if the Goliath starts with a 14(that gets bumped to 16), and the Halfling buys 17 or 18. It's still doable now. And it would happen just as much without the stat mods thanks to the other racial traits.
And then IMHO a massive Goliath, Dragonborn or Half-orc should be at least an as dangerous Avenger as an Elf - which they aren't as is.
Going by the outline of my ideas above Goliaths will make great Avengers, as will Elfs - but instead of them being essentially identical (same or no stat bonuses) the Goliath will have better damage and HP, the Elf will have better defences.
(Hopefully!) just as good, but different!
Except that you'd essentially totally change the racial balance.
+1 to melee is insanely more valuable than +1 to ranged. Well over half of the classes use melee just about exclusively, and even the portion that are ranged still use melee sometimes.
Not to mention that +1 to melee damage is also significantly better than a couple extra hit points, or really any of the other things you suggested.
I don't think you can balance this new idea of yours.
I'd be more careful with statements like that if I were you.
...a +2 to your primary stat (+1 to hit and damage) means roughly 20% more damage to the enemy. 20%!
That sounds like quite a dramatic exaggeration to me. Unless you can show me some math, I have no idea where you pulled that number from. Of course, this depend on the characters' levels. I could even maybe believe the difference to be that big at level 1, but I don't buy that it'll last much longer than that.
The "Very Strong" example I posted wouldn't make any difference - if it only applied to STR-based classes! However when it applies to all melee damage things changes a lot! Yes, a Goliath still won't be as good at ranged combat, but IME even dedicated ranged fighters make melee attacks fairly often.
If "+2 STR" was pigeon-holing Goliaths into melee classes before, then how do you think that "+1 to melee damage" is going to look? At least with +2 STR and +2 CON Goliaths could make good Warlocks, Wizards, Bards, Druids, Invokers, Shamans, Sorcerers, Artificers, and Seekers too due to getting secondary ability score boosts (primary for the Warlock!). With "Very Strong", the Goliath offers almost nothing at all to these classes.
Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha
Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.
Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I'm more inclined to feel that "you get +2 to one of these two stats" on the race, and then the same done with the class, would be a better solution when it comes to ensuring that stat modifiers don't get in the way. "Fighter: +2 Str or +2 Dex" means that it doesn't matter whether you're playing a "Goliath: +2 Str or +2 Con" or a "Deva: +2 Int or +2 Wis" - they'll both be able to have that +2 Str along with their second stat bump.
Edit: I forgot to add: This suggestion assumes that you can't choose the same stat bump twice - you can't grab +2 Str for Fighter and +2 Str for Goliath, etc.
