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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Deve.. Alignment Choice For "End Justifies The Means"
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 6:16AM #1
Mastema_The_Putrid
Date Joined: Jul 29, 2010
Posts: 21
Hey,

I've been experiencing some 'definition' problems concerning my character's alignment. The problem is not that I do not know his alignment, but rather that I cannot put a D&D standard name on it.

My char can best be summarised as the following:
A strong believer of the philosophy: "The end justifies the means".
However, not only does he adhere to this proverb, he is also convinced that Evil itself is the best mean one can ever use, as any means of Good is per definition unfit for battle; that is: Good seeks peace, not war, therefore it doesn't have either the motivation nor sufficient knowledge to wage war.
His goal is usually Good though, but it is mostly what he might deem to be Good himself; it is definitely never inherently Evil or pointlessly destructive.
There is of course also the slight urge of any tiefling to be just that tad Evil and to overdo a little bit when it comes down to 'creative' problem solving.

So now I'm torn between three specific alignments:
- Lawful Evil: His actions plainly radiate Evil. He's an infernal warlock who praises the pact of his ancestors with the Devils of Asmodeus and uses it fully. Yet lawfully he adheres a very specific set of rules (which he deems to be Good though).
- Lawful Neutral: His intentions are lawful to a set of rules, but his means tend do go any way he pleases. If Good were more fit for battle he would most likely use it more than Evil, so he doesn't really care much for what alignment his actions indicate, but more for the goals they acomplish.
- Chaotic Good: His intentions are primarily Good (but that's a big point of dispute since he himself likes to define Good...) and he'd use any means to accomplish them, even downright Evil.

Actually, a lot of other alignments fit too, but I never find the description wholly pleasing to my character's persona.

Any input, or alternative alignment names that do not fall in the standard 3x3 alignment grid?
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 8:24AM #2
silent_stone
Date Joined: Aug 9, 2008
Posts: 342
I would recommend abandoning the concept of alignment, and just playing the character.  If you're torn between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good as being equally apt for your character, then it would be clear (to me, anyways, YMMV) that the distinctions between Good and Evil and Law and Chaos are meaningless anyways.

Or, if your DM is forcing you to pick one, just pick plain old Neutral or Unaligned.
Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders. Das Fliegende Spaghettimonster helfe mir. RAmen.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 12:07PM #3
BvBPL
Date Joined: Jun 8, 2010
Posts: 241

Your character is patently evil.  I wouldn’t say that he necessarily radiates evil like some fiendish space heater, but, yeah, he’s evil.  Evil characters don’t necessarily have the blood of devils flowing through their veins or make pacts with the Powers Below, although this guy did.  What makes this guy evil is his uncompromising stance that the ends justify the means and that the most efficacious means must be employed regardless of how vile those measures may be.  The fact that he might be working for what he perceives as the general welfare does not absolve his black, black heart.


 Whether he is lawful, chaotic, or neutral is probably best determined by his relationship with authority or his general temperament.  If he works well with others and wants to build a society, then he’s more lawful, whereas if he is more anti-establishment then he would be more chaotic. 


 

Rule one isn’t “The DM is always right.”  Rule one is: Everyone should be having fun at the table.

Plans for 5e: Kill the d20, and replace it with a bell curve for task resolution.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 1:20PM #4
Dark_Lambo
Date Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 3,757
I agree with BvBPL.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 2:31PM #5
Mastema_The_Putrid
Date Joined: Jul 29, 2010
Posts: 21
Thanks for the replies

Well, I've noticed that you've based your opinion on the fact that you think that "The End Justifies The Means" is evil. However, I might be a loner in this specific opinion, but I do quite follow the above proverb myself and think of it rather as the greater good.

Consider the movie "V for Vendetta" that stars a lead that is so clearly in touch with "The End Justifies The Means", yet in common appreciation everyone considers him a hero... and he's labelled Chaotic Good.

I understand the common conception to label anyone who considers any means whatsoever as a cold and ruthless bastard, but really, if I were to save a hundred lives by shooting some serial killer, I'd do it in a heartbeat... and almost nobody would object.
And it's no different than saving hundred lives by shooting a beautiful princess, because the line we need to cross is not in 'how pure is the blood that I spill' (the means) but 'how much good did it do' (the end).

That's just my personal opinion, but you see, following your above logic in my own logic is as if saying that my character is actually Good.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 2:43PM #6
Mastema_The_Putrid
Date Joined: Jul 29, 2010
Posts: 21
On second though, considering the fact that he clearly prefers to use only Evil means (instead of any means whatsoever, Good whenever possible and Evil when need be) does indicate that his alignment is undoubtedly Evil.

Thanks
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 4:58PM #7
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,524
Definitely Evil.  You can't accomplish Good by performing Evil.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 6:45PM #8
BvBPL
Date Joined: Jun 8, 2010
Posts: 241

Jul 29, 2010 -- 4:58PM, Salla wrote:

Definitely Evil.  You can't accomplish Good by performing Evil.




I think that's right, but I'd like to point out that a character that is interested in the general welfare of his people to to the point where he is driven to perform vile acts can be said to do evil for the cause of good (or at least his perception of good) makes for a really interesting tragic character.  Like Cepheus and Cassiopeia who tried to sacrifice Andromeda to quell the wrath of Poseidon and thereby save the people of Jaffa.  Or any other number of other tragic characters throughout myth. 


Rule one isn’t “The DM is always right.”  Rule one is: Everyone should be having fun at the table.

Plans for 5e: Kill the d20, and replace it with a bell curve for task resolution.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 8:49PM #9
Pashalik_Mons
Date Joined: May 17, 2009
Posts: 7,095
I'm with the Salla and BvBPL on this one.  The main thing that makes the "Ends justify the means" stance so morally repugnant is the way it trivializes any evil that is done.  A character trying to be Good will generally let his actions be inefficient if it stops more evil from coming about.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven.  You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner


4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2010 - 9:20PM #10
odonabhan1132
Date Joined: Aug 18, 2007
Posts: 156

Jul 29, 2010 -- 2:31PM, Mastema_The_Putrid wrote:

Thanks for the replies


Consider the movie "V for Vendetta" that stars a lead that is so clearly in touch with "The End Justifies The Means", yet in common appreciation everyone considers him a hero... and he's labelled Chaotic Good.




It was actually V's fault we started using Magic TCG colors (and combos) instead of alignment in our games.  Rosewater did a series on what color or colors sifferent referance characthers like V were and why.  the explanation of Red/White using either law or chaos to achieve the other was great and he used V to show how a ridgid prepared precicely executed act could cause liberating chaos.  I'd reccomend giving it a try to anyone who plays both games.

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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Deve.. Alignment Choice For "End Justifies The Means"
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