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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 5:26PM
#31
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The question of how hard it is to say "two squares north, one square east" in-game is unrelated.
Perhaps, but a "things you should ask your DM" section might be good, to point out things likely to have table variation that's best to know about ahead of time. It would suck to go through the effort of becoming hidden and then moving and then having the one monster with a good perception score ruin the effort if you didn't know it was a possibility.
An excellent idea!
So, for "Ask your DM", we have "how hard it is to share knowledge?" and "If a power says you can roll Stealth to become Hidden, does that break the rules".... anything else?
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 7:32PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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How about "Will this campaign have lots of open spaces" and "how are you handling using furniture for cover"? Both especially important if you if he using modules.  I thought it was interesting that standing next to Beds and some Tables in many of the modules provided a creature with cover per their rules ... it didn't matter if you were standing right next to another opponent or not. And many of the outdoors encounters the only way to get cover is to run into the bushes that the enemies are coming out of. It's can be hard to Stealth without decent terrain, especially in Heroic levels.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 8:26PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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But if you go around a corner out of sight of everyone (effectively invisible) and don't make any sounds (silent) you still aren't hidden if you don't make a Stealth check. So while it may seem synonymous, the rules just don't work that way.
"Effectively" invisible is not invisible. Being around a corner gives you total concealment, not invisibility; they're not the same thing.
Actually, being around a corner technically gives you superior cover not concealment. (you aren't invisible or in an obscured square)
Being deaf and blind doesn't make other creatures invisible either.
And there are only two ways in-game to become silent, one being a stealth check and the other being an assassin power that makes you "silent and invisible", as far as I know, so it's not like anyone can just stand there being quiet and claim they're making no sound. Something has to specifically say they're being silent.
Much like being hidden. Funny that...
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 8:30PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2009
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Thanks for the excellent post LoW.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 9:23PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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The question of how hard it is to say "two squares north, one square east" in-game is unrelated.
Perhaps, but a "things you should ask your DM" section might be good, to point out things likely to have table variation that's best to know about ahead of time. It would suck to go through the effort of becoming hidden and then moving and then having the one monster with a good perception score ruin the effort if you didn't know it was a possibility.
An excellent idea!
So, for "Ask your DM", we have "how hard it is to share knowledge?" and "If a power says you can roll Stealth to become Hidden, does that break the rules".... anything else?
If you can't share knowledge, you probably also want to ask how the DM wants to handle situations where an enemy is hidden from you but not all your allies and thus still on the map. Does he want you to avoid attacking anywhere but it's last known square unless you have a good reason to guess he'd be elsewhere? Does he want you to roll some kind of check if you want to attack the enemy elsewhere? If an ally that the ebemy isn't hidden from attacks his square, will that let you know the enemy is there even if verbal communication won't do? Is he holding the monsters to the same standards? It tends to be particularly relevant with AoE powers, since it can be quite tempting to make sure to catch a hidden creature in an AoE; it's good to know if DMs want a justification for setting a burst down in an area that "just happens" to include an enemy hidden from you in addition to other enemies when that might not otherwise be the best location for the burst.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 28, 2010 - 9:33AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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If you can't share knowledge, you probably also want to ask how the DM wants to handle situations where an enemy is hidden from you but not all your allies and thus still on the map.
If it's hidden from anyone, why is it still on the map? I pull minatures off the map as soon as they are hidden from anyone. (That doesn't invalidate your "question for the DM", I'm just curious why a DM wouldn't remove it.)
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3 years ago ::
Jul 28, 2010 - 10:06AM
#37
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If it's hidden from anyone, why is it still on the map?
Because it's not Hidden from everyone, and so everyone except that one guy knows exactly where it is, and that one guy knows exactly where it *was*.
I usually leave even "Hidden from everyone" minis on the table, with a tag or coloured base to indicate Hidden. Because even if he's not in that square any more, everyone knows where he WAS.
(If he's still non-Hidden to anyone, I just move the mini normally, and I let players tell each other where the guy got to pretty much freely to avoid questions of knowledge.)
I pull minatures off the map as soon as they are hidden from anyone. (That doesn't invalidate your "question for the DM", I'm just curious why a DM wouldn't remove it.)
See above: I don't remove 'em unless they're Hidden from EVERYONE, and not usually even then.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 28, 2010 - 10:21AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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If you can't share knowledge, you probably also want to ask how the DM wants to handle situations where an enemy is hidden from you but not all your allies and thus still on the map.
If it's hidden from anyone, why is it still on the map? I pull minatures off the map as soon as they are hidden from anyone. (That doesn't invalidate your "question for the DM", I'm just curious why a DM wouldn't remove it.)
Unless you send everyone who he's hidden from out of the room every time he takes a turn or someone who he's not hidden from takes a turn, every player is going to know where he is anyway. There's no real point in removing a hidden enemy's mini unless he's hidden from everyone. Likewise, the questions are relevant for knowing how the DM plans on dealing with PCs being hidden from his monsters, since he definitely knows where they are but the monsters shouldn't really know anything but the last square they were unhidden in.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 28, 2010 - 10:42AM
#39
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You might also want to discuss the differences between Blind the creature keyword and Blinded the condition.
Creatures that are Blind (ie, have the Blind keyword) almost always have a secondary sight system (tremorsense, etc). And nothing in the game system adds the Blind keyword to anything. There is no Blind effect or condition that can applied to characters outside of DM fiat.
Blinded however, is a condition that affects sight, but does not make the character Blind. Technically, with blinded, you can still see, you just see poorly (hence the -5), but nothing has happened to remove LOS to anything. I like to think of blinded as sand in the eyes, you can't see very well due to tearing and you are distracted by the grit in your eye, so that affects your performance, but nothing else.
I think it's particularily important to this topic because people typically talk about being blinded and wanting to start giving things invisibility. Or combining blinded with deafened to gain hidden.
Also you might want to note how invisibility interacts with things like Hunters Quarry and Warlock's Curses which explicitly state "nearest creature that you can see".
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3 years ago ::
Jul 28, 2010 - 10:51AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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Wow, that's kind of amazing to me. I just make the people that a creature is hidden from close their eyes and point out where it is to anyone that asks. People can't NOT act on information they have, it's against human nature. Either they act with the knowledge in their favor, or they act with the knowledge not in their favor in some kind of attempt to pretent they don't have the knowledge.
Always better to keep the knowledge out of their hands in the first place.
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