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Jan 23, 2013 -- 5:27PM, Sea-Envy wrote:

 
"The part that's usually most confusing to new players (especially those who played prior versions) is that a creature that becomes invisible is not automatically hidden, and you still know exactly what space it is in."


The number of powers writen with the mistaken belief that becoming invisible = enemies haveing no clue as to where you could be dose not help

Which ones, in particular?  I have no shame about making a list.

Do you refer to powers like Raven's Glamor, Clever Escape and Crystal Duplicate which let you become invisible and teleport while leaving behind an illusionary duplicate of yourself ?

Taking 10 or Taking 20 on stealth checks...

Okay I know you can't take 10 or take 20 in combat or other situations where you are hurried, rushed, or threatened. My question pertains to things that happen outside of combat.

So here is my theoretical scenario: The players are all in a room, separated by a 100 foot twisting hall that leads to another room where the monsters are playing a boardgame or singing or whatever, all distracted and making so much noise that the players know there is something going on and are therefore aware that there will be monsters there. The player party decides to sent its ranger, with stealth skill of 9, down the hall to investigate.

1) Can the PC ranger hide while in his current room? He meets all the requirements to attempt a stealth check in terms of being out of sight, but really there are no monsters to (currently) oppose his stealth check. So I assume he automatically succeeds, and then slowly (2 squares per move, and staying under cover or concealment) proceed down the hall to try to sneak up and spy on the monsters. When he gets within range of the monsters, he compares his stealth check to their passive perception to see if he gets noticed.

2) Assuming the PC ranger can hide while in his current room, it seems reasonable that if he chooses, since he is not in combat or being rushed, that he can opt to take 10 for his stealth check before proceeding down the hall?

3) And assuming the PC ranger has plenty of time, it seems reasonable that if he chooses, since he is not in combat or being rushed, that he can continue rolling stealth checks to hide until he gets a roll that he likes before proceeding down the hall, or optionally just take 20 since he will get that roll eventually anyways?

As DM, when a player tried this, I ruled that the stealth check only occurs at the moment that an enemy has its first chance to possibly notice the PC, ie when the PC is just outside the room within range of hearing by the monsters. But the player says that RAW does not prevent him from becoming hidden outside of range of detection and then following the rules saying that he remains hidden until he takes an action that makes him not hidden, thus enabling him to bring his stealth roll of 20 with him down the hall. Help please!? 

Baldhermit, I am talking about a scenario where the player does indeed have no consequences from failing the skill check.

As you pointed out, page 41 of DMG describes an example of "taking 20" when it describes searching a room. The point that section in the DMG makes is that if a player is not under a time constaint and wants to continue making perception checks indefinitely, with no negative consequences from any failed checks, eventually he will roll a 20, and thus can just take a 20 assuming they have a minute or two to spend searching.

This could be extrapolated to other skill checks that do not have negative consequences, such as in my example in my original post, where a player is making a stealth check so far away from any monsters, that there is no possible bad effect from making a low roll. The monsters who are playing loud music in a room 100 feet down a winding hall with a thick door and totally distracted have no chance of detecting the player even if the player rolls a 1.

So can the player just keep rolling stealth checks until he gets a 20 before proceeding down the hall, thus remaining hidden until he becomes not hidden? Or should the stealth check only be made at the point where a monster has at least a remote chance of detecting a player, so that there can then be a negative consequence of a failed check?

What Mad Jack said.