I'm going to DM a short adventure (one play session) in my local gaming store, and am pre-generating characters. I'd like to build the rogue with the Midnight Blade Style feats from MP 2, and therefore he'd get Gloaming Cut as one of his at-wills.
I've read the first post, and I've followed the link to the MP 2 FAQ, so I know that normally, he'd need total cover or concealment to make use of the stealth check these powers/feats grant, but I'm very tempted to ignore that, since thematically, I like the idea of a rogue being able to duck out of notice and then surprise his opponent. Knowing his Stealth modifier, and the stats of all creatures he's going to meet, he's definitely not going to beat all of their passive Perception every turn in every fight - and if one enemy knows where he is, they all do (barring exceptionally stupid opponents that don't communicate).
In what way could this completely blow up in my face?
Well how is he "ducking out of notice?" stepping around a corner for full concedalment. Kneeling down in front of a chest high wall for full concealment. Or is he standing in the middle of the room with his arm crossed over his chest saying "you can't see me"
The sea looks at the stabillity of the mountian and sighs. The mountian watches the freedom of the sea and cries.
Well how is he "ducking out of notice?" stepping around a corner for full concedalment. Kneeling down in front of a chest high wall for full concealment. Or is he standing in the middle of the room with his arm crossed over his chest saying "you can't see me"
You know that thing people do where they tap you on your right shoulder to trick you into looking while they're actually on your left? The rogue sticks his dagger in your right shoulder and then very quickly ducks to your left, so you're left wondering where he went. That's why those powers say "you shift X squares and make a Stealth check". The movement is part of the attack, and becoming hidden at the end (if you succeed on the check) does not so much represent hiding behind something as tricking your opponent into losing sight of you.
Again, I already know this isn't the intended use of these powers. By the rules, you should duck behind something (full cover) or have total concealment, but I'm looking for ways a player might exploit it if I, as the DM, decide to bend the rules. Because fun.
I looked through this thread, my apologies if I missed it. Here's my problem:
I have an Epic level halfling Rogue, Master Infiltrator. He focused on Stealth, and needless to say his Stealth is very, very high. This in and of itself is no problem, but with the use of certain powers it seems overpowered.
Example: 1. He uses Impossible to Catch, becoming invisible. 2. He moves 1-2 squares, rolls a Stealth check to become hidden. His stealth result is always high. 3. He then uses "Hide in Plain Sight" or "Hide from the Light".
At this point, he uses ranged attacks with impunity. Of course every round there's a continued Stealth/Perception check, but it's extraordinarily hard for anyone to beat him. Monsters bust out their Burst/Close/Area attacks and the like, so he's not exactly unstoppable, but it does seem a bit out of hand.
We House Ruled it so that, as long as he's attacking, there's a cumulative +4 to Perception checks to find him after the first round. However, I wanted to check with you guys.... Am I doing it wrong? What am I missing?
I looked through this thread, my apologies if I missed it. Here's my problem:
I have an Epic level halfling Rogue, Master Infiltrator. He focused on Stealth, and needless to say his Stealth is very, very high. This in and of itself is no problem, but with the use of certain powers it seems overpowered.
Example: 1. He uses Impossible to Catch, becoming invisible. 2. He moves 1-2 squares, rolls a Stealth check to become hidden. His stealth result is always high. 3. He then uses "Hide in Plain Sight" or "Hide from the Light".
At this point, he uses ranged attacks with impunity. Of course every round there's a continued Stealth/Perception check, but it's extraordinarily hard for anyone to beat him. Monsters bust out their Burst/Close/Area attacks and the like, so he's not exactly unstoppable, but it does seem a bit out of hand.
We House Ruled it so that, as long as he's attacking, there's a cumulative +4 to Perception checks to find him after the first round. However, I wanted to check with you guys.... Am I doing it wrong? What am I missing?
Okay:
#1: Both of those powers make him INVISIBLE, not Hidden. There's no need for any Perception checks, everyone knows exactly where he is - and a successful perception check won't make him visible again regardless.
But, again, everyone knows EXACTLY where he is. He was Hidden, then he attacked, so he stopped being Hidden even though his Invisibility lasts for the Encounter. Invisibility: It's not Hidden.
#2: Why aren't the monsters moving him?
One push, pull, slide, or teleport - even a straight-up Bull Rush - and suddenly he's "left his current space" and Hide In Plain Sight ends. Hide From The Light is a little meaner, but forcemoving him on his turn is still possible, and even if it's a problem, that's a Daily. He can do that for one fight a day - and as soon as he yanks it out, all of his big guns turn off. He can't pull out an Encounter or a Daily without losing Hide From The Light.
#3: Don't forget, he is ONLY Invisible. Not Hidden. So nobody needs to guess his location, and while it's a strong trick (People can't get CA against him, he has CA against people who can't see him, -5 to hit him with Ranged and Melee attacks) it's not inherently a gamewinner.
Fundamentally, he's an Epic stealth-focused Rogue. He's going to do this kind of thing, and that's okay. The important things to remember are the downsides of the powers ("can't move at all" and "can't move far or use his good attacks") and remember what the powers DO NOT do ("Make monsters guess at his location").
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
#1: Both of those powers make him INVISIBLE, not Hidden. There's no need for any Perception checks, everyone knows exactly where he is - and a successful perception check won't make him visible again regardless.
But, again, everyone knows EXACTLY where he is. He was Hidden, then he attacked, so he stopped being Hidden even though his Invisibility lasts for the Encounter. Invisibility: It's not Hidden.
#2: Why aren't the monsters moving him?
One push, pull, slide, or teleport - even a straight-up Bull Rush - and suddenly he's "left his current space" and Hide In Plain Sight ends. Hide From The Light is a little meaner, but forcemoving him on his turn is still possible, and even if it's a problem, that's a Daily. He can do that for one fight a day - and as soon as he yanks it out, all of his big guns turn off. He can't pull out an Encounter or a Daily without losing Hide From The Light.
#3: Don't forget, he is ONLY Invisible. Not Hidden. So nobody needs to guess his location, and while it's a strong trick (People can't get CA against him, he has CA against people who can't see him, -5 to hit him with Ranged and Melee attacks) it's not inherently a gamewinner.
Fundamentally, he's an Epic stealth-focused Rogue. He's going to do this kind of thing, and that's okay. The important things to remember are the downsides of the powers ("can't move at all" and "can't move far or use his good attacks") and remember what the powers DO NOT do ("Make monsters guess at his location").
I think I understand. Let me explain my understanding to see if this is correct.
Example: 1. He uses Impossible to Catch, becoming invisible. 2. He moves 1-2 squares, rolls a Stealth check to become hidden. His stealth result is always high. 3. He then uses "Hide in Plain Sight" or "Hide from the Light". 4. He remains hidden until he attacks. Once he attacks, he is no longer hidden, but he remains invisible (as the powers state). 5. Monster know his location after he attacks, even though he's invisible, and as such that can go to his square and attack him (albeit at the -5 penalty). 6. He may continue to use Stealth to become hidden (since he's invisible), but once he attacks he is out of the hidden club. However, whether he's hidden or not, being invisible gives him combat advantage over targets (pg 281 PH).
Is this correct?
EDIT: Even if this is correct, it may not fix things. Every turn, he can Attack, Move 2, then roll Stealth again, which brings us back to the original problem of him being nearly impossible to find. Naturally only his daily "Hide from the Light" allows him to move 2. However, I think I remember someone saying you can "Move 0" and roll stealth anyway. Is this wrong?
Correct. Every time he attacks (unless the power or some feat specifies otherwise) he leaves Hidden club until he uses a move action, or an action in which me moves, to make a stealth check and become Hidden again.
He does keep CA and the enemies take a -5 to hit him with melee/ranged until his Invisibility ends.
Correct. Every time he attacks (unless the power or some feat specifies otherwise) he leaves Hidden club until he uses a move action, or an action in which me moves, to make a stealth check and become Hidden again.
He does keep CA and the enemies take a -5 to hit him with melee/ranged until his Invisibility ends.
Thanks! So my question is: do you have to actually move squares to roll stealth to become hidden? Or it just counts as a move action (essentially moving 0 squares, but still using up your move action)?
This also means for one encounter a day, he can use Hide from the Light and be pretty much perma-hidden (since he'll attack, move 2, roll stealth, then be hidden again).
On Page 281 PH, it talks about "Targeting What You Can't See". It says: "At the end of a concealed creature's turn, it rolls Stealth opposed to your passive perception check. If you beat it, you know there's a creature present you can't see, and you know the direction of it's location. If you beat it by 10 or more, you know exactly what square the creature ended it's turn in." Unless this was errataed (which is a strong possiblity!), then being invisible means you're hidden as long as your stealth check isn't beaten (and they need to beat it by 10 to know exactly what square you're in). Was this errataed? Or does this mean that you may be hidden, but just before you became hidden everyone saw what square you attacked from, so unless you moved somehow they know which square to attack?
from my understanding you need to move at least 2 squares to make a stealth check to become hidden again unless you have a power or ability that states otherwise. Like the rogue class feature for example.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam"
"I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
I think I understand. Let me explain my understanding to see if this is correct.
Example: 1. He uses Impossible to Catch, becoming invisible. 2. He moves 1-2 squares, rolls a Stealth check to become hidden. His stealth result is always high. 3. He then uses "Hide in Plain Sight" or "Hide from the Light". 4. He remains hidden until he attacks. Once he attacks, he is no longer hidden, but he remains invisible (as the powers state).
A point: He remains Hidden until he does something that loses him Hidden. Attacking is just one way to do it.
5. Monster know his location after he attacks, even though he's invisible, and as such that can go to his square and attack him (albeit at the -5 penalty).
Monsters knew where he was *when they lost him* - when he ended his Move and became Hidden.
So while they have to guess his square, guessing is, in many cases, REALLY EASY.
6. He may continue to use Stealth to become hidden (since he's invisible), but once he attacks he is out of the hidden club. However, whether he's hidden or not, being invisible gives him combat advantage over targets (pg 281 PH).
EDIT: Even if this is correct, it may not fix things. Every turn, he can Attack, Move 2, then roll Stealth again, which brings us back to the original problem of him being nearly impossible to find.
No, because he Attacks (revealing his location), moves 2 (announcing each step, because that's what you do), ends his movement, and then becomes Hidden (forcing them to guess, but with them KNOWING where he ended his move. Because you can only become Hidden at the end of a move.)
Naturally only his daily "Hide from the Light" allows him to move 2. However, I think I remember someone saying you can "Move 0" and roll stealth anyway. Is this wrong?
That's not wrong - you can roll stealth to become Hidden at the end of any Move Action, or any of your actions where you move.
But it doesn't help, because "I Move 0, ending my movement in this square. I then become Hidden".
If he doesn't move out of that square after becoming Hidden, everyone is going to guess his square correctly. If he DOES move out, the first person is probably going to guess wrong on the first round, but later attackers are going to be more careful.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
