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3 years ago ::
Jul 28, 2010 - 12:27PM
#41
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Hidden and Minis is a Meta concept regardless if it's a monster mini or player mini on the map. Players do hidden too, and the DM still sees where that mini is. He just now has to meta-game how he wants the monsters to react. Same thing for players. It's another one of those gentleman's agreement "play as you would like to be played against" sort of thing. Do you want your Hidden to be useless unless you are hidden from all the enemies on the table, or do you want to be able to hide from that one creature successfully?
Either the player decides their character can't see the mini right in front of him or they don't and always hit it right on. This is a table level decision on how to RP.
Personally, I don't remove the mini unless hidden from everyone. But I also suggest that my players can only do close bursts and blasts (and maybe area attacks if they're big enough) against hidden creatures. My rationale is that even if the creature is adjacent and the others say, "he's right in front of you". They're still looking at 3 squares you would have to swing through in order to hit reliably. 3 squares is almost halfway to a burst power. I find this lets hidden be a cool mechanic that can't just be bypassed by a little table chatter. Plus most characters have some way of dealing burst/blast damage if they really really need to hit it. Otherwise players should treat the creature as hidden and remove it as an option to target at all.
Other mechanics I've seen are:
-DC checks of varying difficulty depending on range/other players directions.
-Coin toss of able to target/not able to target when given player directions.
-Picking a 3x3 grid and having the player roll to see what square they hit to determine if they find the creature, then make the attack roll if successful.
-Hidden creatures are treated like quasi-swarms. Regular damage from close bursts/blasts, 1/2 damage from range/melee/area. And players are treated as if they are blinded for the Attack roll for non burst/blast (ie -5)
-Hidden creatures can't be targeted EVER. Bursts only.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2010 - 10:23AM
#42
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I think there is something else that needs to be addressed in the hidden club:
When a creature is removed from play (from a power such as Void Assumption). You may technically not be "hidden" per RAW, but you are effectively hidden.
The question arises...when you come back into play, does every enemy combatant automatically know where you are? What if you come back behind cover or superior cover? Can you make a stealth check? What if you appear adjacent to an enemy? Would you have CA if you make an attack immediately after starting your turn?
I'm curious what the RAW and RAI would be here.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2010 - 10:27AM
#43
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You are not hidden, but nothing has line of sight to you, so you have total concealment. If you're able to take your turns normally, you can hide while removed from play. But if you're returned from play without any concealment, say goodbye to that.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2010 - 11:17AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
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I think there is something else that needs to be addressed in the hidden club:
When a creature is removed from play (from a power such as Void Assumption). You may technically not be "hidden" per RAW, but you are effectively hidden.
The question arises...when you come back into play, does every enemy combatant automatically know where you are? What if you come back behind cover or superior cover? Can you make a stealth check? What if you appear adjacent to an enemy? Would you have CA if you make an attack immediately after starting your turn?
I'm curious what the RAW and RAI would be here.
Like Tomu said.
You aren't hidden until you make a stealth roll or use a power that specificly defines you as hidden. It should be noted that you will not reappear during an action so any actions you take (if you lose the hidden effect by appearing out of concealment) would not get CA or other benefits.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2010 - 6:12PM
#45
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I enjoy being referenced. It gives me warm fuzzies.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2010 - 7:09PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Dec 14, 2004
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Here's a situation where I remove the enemy from the board when its not "hidden". But should I?
During an encounter with numerous enemies, one enemy moves into an empty room and shuts the door. Should the players know where that enemy is in the room? Suppose there's an unknown secret door in the room that the enemy is using in an attempt to escape.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2010 - 7:59PM
#47
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Here's a situation where I remove the enemy from the board when its not "hidden". But should I?
During an encounter with numerous enemies, one enemy moves into an empty room and shuts the door. Should the players know where that enemy is in the room? Suppose there's an unknown secret door in the room that the enemy is using in an attempt to escape.
Yes, you should leave the mini on the board, BUT:
1) The monster has Total Concealment, and thus can attempt to become Hidden at the end of every Move.
2) A closed and locked door, and thick walls, provide a perfectly good excuse for a situational penalty to the Perception check, making it much easier for him to become Hidden (and get yanked off the board) and to stay Hidden (unless they get in there before he gets out of sight.)
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3 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2010 - 8:33PM
#48
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Well the funny thing there is that, no matter what the perception penalty is, a stunned enemy cannot hide.
If a stunned cat is put into a box, and the state of decay of a particle determines whether or not Stinking Cloud is cast on the area, no matter what the perception penalty, because the cat cannot hide, we will inevitably know where it is.
Though not necessarily if it's alive or dead.
Okay, so, that was a really stupid schrodinger's cat reference, but you get the idea.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2010 - 4:48AM
#49
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Great work LoW. Clear and concise. May i suggest to remind Hidden Club members how easily it is for a creature to try and find you on it;s turn, Minor Action Perception check. Doesn't mean it's easily achievable, but trying isn't hard at all and it can be tried more than once at any given time. So should one remove the figuring from the board or not ? How to do it right could be to assign the Map's axis some letter A-B-C etc...and numbers 1-2-3 etc.... Hidden PC's players select a a square they occupy when moving while Hidden into a square and write it away. When the enemy attack the Hidden PC, the DM select a square and see if it matches. Actually, being around a corner technically gives you superior cover not concealment. (you aren't invisible or in an obscured square)
Humm...this seems not right if i understood correctly. Because how you trace LoE and LoS are done in a similar fashion using corners or spaces, if you can't trace a Lines to a creature standing around a corner, the creature effectively has Superior Cover but also Total Concealment. Blocking Terrain block LoS.
PHB 273 Line of Sight: Even if you can see a target, objects and effects can still partially block your view. If you can see a target but at least one line passes through an obstruction, the target has cover or concealment.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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3 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2010 - 6:50AM
#50
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The corner wouldn't grant concealment persay, but if the corner is opaque, it blocks line of sight, which has the side-effect of granting total concealment (effectively speaking).
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