First let me say thank you all for being patient with me as I try to understand this issue. I have 2 players with high stealth skill who really want to use it often. As DM, I have made all of these points to the players, but there is still some disagreement with how the rules apply.
The answer to that is 'if it doesn't matter, why are you rolling?' - at that point the PC is trying to roll stealth there's nothing to hide from and no penalty for failure, so no need to roll.
I am rolling because the players want to roll. They want to roll because they want to become Hidden while the enemy that they know about is still at a far enough range or under some other effect (such as sleeping) where they are having significant penalties to their perception skill check, and there are benefits to becoming Hidden, such as being able to remain Hidden without additional Stealth checks as long as they follow the Rules of Hidden Club.
If they're trying to set an ambush, then that could range from a single group stealth roll (or possibly nature, dungeoneering or other appropriate substitute skills) to an entire skill challenge - but if you're trying to use stealth to set and ambush, you get one roll - if you roll low, then the ambush gets noticed at the point where it would trigger, and you don't get a surprise round, basically.
I like the idea of using Nature or Dungeoneering skill checks to set up an ambush. I'll use that idea this next week.
But the rules don't prevent the player from trying to become Hidden far from the enemy where significant penalties occur to the perception checks, so why have to wait on Stealth check until the point that the enemy is about to be attacked or spied on or whatever?
Because that's the only time it matters. Rolling solely to roll is pointless and wastes everybody's time. If someone's doing something with no penalty for failure, and no benefit for success, like hiding from nobody in the middle of an empty wilderness, they just NARRATE it, they don't need to roll for it, because the roll does nothing. You got a 40 stealth to hide from and enemy that hasn't crossed the horizon yet? Woo. Good for you. You hide from ALL THE THINGS. But, given that none of them knew where you were anyway, it did nothing.
You got a 10 stealth (or nature, or whatever) when setting your ambush, and the ambushee has 20 passive perception? Sucks to be you, you left some tracks or broke a branch or something, and the enemy twigs to the fact that you're hiding in ambush, and you don't get your surprise round. In this case, you're not making a single skill check once the enemy comes - you're using the skill(s) to represent how well you set this ambush, over the course of 30 seconds or 30 hours, however long it took you to set it up.
Once you're IN a (combat) encounter, the Hidden Club comes into play, and you can start to roll stealth to Hide.
Because that's the only time it matters. Rolling solely to roll is pointless and wastes everybody's time. If someone's doing something with no penalty for failure, and no benefit for success, like hiding from nobody in the middle of an empty wilderness, they just NARRATE it, they don't need to roll for it, because the roll does nothing. You got a 40 stealth to hide from and enemy that hasn't crossed the horizon yet? Woo. Good for you. You hide from ALL THE THINGS. But, given that none of them knew where you were anyway, it did nothing.
You got a 10 stealth (or nature, or whatever) when setting your ambush, and the ambushee has 20 passive perception? Sucks to be you, you left some tracks or broke a branch or something, and the enemy twigs to the fact that you're hiding in ambush, and you don't get your surprise round. In this case, you're not making a single skill check once the enemy comes - you're using the skill(s) to represent how well you set this ambush, over the course of 30 seconds or 30 hours, however long it took you to set it up.
Once you're IN a (combat) encounter, the Hidden Club comes into play, and you can start to roll stealth to Hide.
I am not suggesting there are no enemies present at all. There is an enemy present. They are just under enough penalties to their perception check such that the player can make a Stealth attempt and not worry about failing if they do so. What prevents the player from trying to hide at this point?
Let me give you a made up scenario. (This was not what actually happened in the game last week that I was DMing, but if I can understand this, I will understand everything I am confused about.)
There is a monster with a Passive Perception of 15. It is sleeping so it gets -5 penalty to its Passive Perception. The player Ranger has been sneaking around and when he is 12 squares away from the monster, he sees the monster asleep on the ground. The Ranger has a Stealth skill of 10. He wants to hide right now. He does not want to attack. He just wants to hide.
1. Seems like this would warrant a Stealth check, correct? I see no problem with this. There is a monster and he can make an attempt to hide from it, correct? If he fails his Stealth check, the monster is going to become aware that the ranger is nearby and will wake up.
2. If he gets to make a Stealth check, say that he then rolls a 1, plus his Stealth skill of 10 for a total of 11, against a DC of 8. [Passive Perception 15 - 5 (for sleeping) - 2 (for being more than 10 squares away) = 8]. The ranger succeeds in becoming Hidden from the sleeping monster. Correct?
3. The Ranger decides he now wants to reroll his Stealth check. He takes a move action, moves zero squares, and rerolls his Stealth check. He now has to keep his new Stealth check roll in place of the previous one. Is there any reason this would not be allowed?
4. Assuming he was allowed to reroll his Stealth check, he continues doing so until he rolls a 20. As long as the monster isn't waking up any time soon, this will eventually happen. Which means the ranger is going be Hidden with a Stealth check of 30. As long as he does not break the rules of remaining Hidden, he continues to be hidden. Is this correct?
5. The ranger now moves slowly, 2 squares at a time, until he is 5 squares away from the monster and behind a tree which provides normal cover. He is still Hidden as no rule regarding remaining Hidden has been broken. Is this correct?
6. The monster decides it is time to wake up, so his Passive Perception when he wakes up is now at its normal full 15. He is no longer sleeping, and the ranger is no longer over 10 squares away. He does not notice the ranger at this time since his Passive Perception does not beat the ranger's last Stealth check of 30. Even if the monster becomes paranoid and decides to look around for anyone hiding around him, he will still fail his active perception check, and he will not become aware of the ranger who is hiding. Is this correct?
1: If the monster's modified passive perception cannot beat his stealth (which it can't, even if he rolls a 1) there's no point rolling, all that's doing is wasting time. The monster doesn't notice him. (and, if you're in initiative, he cannot fail to get Hidden, as the monster's passive cannot beat his lowest possible stealth unless he moves quickly or makes noise).
2: See 1. Hidden is pretty much meaningless in this instance, given that the monster is unconscious and doesn't know he's there.
3: This is pretty much irrelevant unless you're in initiative, which you're not, so don't bother.
4: See 3.
5: See 4. Also, he doesn't need to maintain cover unless this particular monster sleeps with its eyes open (which, to be fair, quite a lot do).
6: If you DO take as read all of the above, yes. However, so what? All this gains your ranger is a surprise round, or being able to pass unseen, which you could just as well have handled by doing the following:
The Ranger makes a stalth check against the sleeping monster's passive perception. In this case, he automatically succeeds. he gets a surprise round as and when he's ready to attack the monster, unless something changes (the monster wakes up). if that thing changes, and he's decided not to attack in the interim, then the monster may notice him with its new, awake Passive Perception. If it does, no surprise round, you're in initiative if the monster is going to attack or vice versa. If all he wants to do is pass or observe unseen, he can do that, unless he gets noticed per the above.
But fundamentally for that whole situation, he doesn't get a stealth check every round unless there's a REASON to have one every round (or indeed, rounds at all), i.e. initiative. He gets a stealth check representing the whole of his sneaking up and ambushing a sleeping monster, whcih gets him a surprise round if he's successful, and he stops rolling unnecessary dice.
Stealth out of combat is happening in a skill challenge, and it's unhelpful and unnecessary to roll every move action, every round, forever, when you could just roll stealth once to represent the entire scene or sequence. In much the same way, in combat, climbing a tall object might take 5 athletics checks, but out of combat, climbing an entire mountain could be boiled down to one or two, in the midst of a long travel-based SC.
1: If the monster's modified passive perception cannot beat his stealth (which it can't, even if he rolls a 1) there's no point rolling, all that's doing is wasting time. The monster doesn't notice him. (and, if you're in initiative, he cannot fail to get Hidden, as the monster's passive cannot beat his lowest possible stealth unless he moves quickly or makes noise).
My players take exception to saying that there is no point in rolling. There is a point to rolling. First, it is part of this so-far noncombat encounter as to whether the monster becomes aware of the approaching PC; second, it sets the Stealth check skill of the player which is part of becoming Hidden; and third, it then sets up the player being able to try to be better Hidden which in game terms means rerolling their Stealth check.
2: See 1. Hidden is pretty much meaningless in this instance, given that the monster is unconscious and doesn't know he's there.
Becoming Hidden is absolutely not meaningless in this instance. Becoming Hidden is harder than remaining Hidden. For example, you only need normal cover or concealment to remain Hidden, as opposed to superior cover or total concealment to become Hidden. In this instance described, the ranger was able to remain Hidden using normal cover, even when the monster woke up. In fact, being Hidden in this instance is entirely essential, otherwise the monster becomes aware of the ranger and will wake up!
3: This is pretty much irrelevant unless you're in initiative, which you're not, so don't bother.
Why it this irrelevant? The player knows his stealth check was low, so he wants to reroll because he has the time to do so. This translates in-character to the ranger realizing he was stepping on twigs (roll of 1) and could probably do a better job of not doing that (by rerolling his stealth check).
4: See 3.
5: See 4. Also, he doesn't need to maintain cover unless this particular monster sleeps with its eyes open (which, to be fair, quite a lot do).
The ranger moves into cover so that if the monster wakes up (which he will) then the ranger will remain hidden. Maybe he wants to spy on the monster for a while after it wakes up.
6: If you DO take as read all of the above, yes. However, so what? All this gains your ranger is a surprise round, or being able to pass unseen, which you could just as well have handled by doing the following:
Because in this made-up scenario, if a player can do all of the above, then I understand how Stealth works. I don't mean to suggest a player would want to do this, but he could want to do this.
I appreciate all the time you are taking helping me to understand the Stealth ability in more detail. Like I said before, I am relatively new to DMing especially 4e, and I have 2 players with high Stealth that like to use the skill a lot.
My players take exception to saying that there is no point in rolling. There is a point to rolling. First, it is part of this so-far noncombat encounter as to whether the monster becomes aware of the approaching PC; second, it sets the Stealth check skill of the player which is part of becoming Hidden; and third, it then sets up the player being able to try to be better Hidden which in game terms means rerolling their Stealth check.
You shouldn't let them do this. The number on the d20 is metagame knowledge, and they should not be able to use it to determine whether they should try again. From the perspective of the characters, they tried their best, and without a reference of someone actually opposing their check they have no way of knowing how good their check was. Just trying again until they roll a natural 20 isn't a good thing to do in this circumstance.
My players take exception to saying that there is no point in rolling. There is a point to rolling. First, it is part of this so-far noncombat encounter as to whether the monster becomes aware of the approaching PC; second, it sets the Stealth check skill of the player which is part of becoming Hidden; and third, it then sets up the player being able to try to be better Hidden which in game terms means rerolling their Stealth check.
You shouldn't let them do this. The number on the d20 is metagame knowledge, and they should not be able to use it to determine whether they should try again. From the perspective of the characters, they tried their best, and without a reference of someone actually opposing their check they have no way of knowing how good their check was. Just trying again until they roll a natural 20 isn't a good thing to do in this circumstance.
As I noted above, the players argue that knowing their roll is like saying that their character has a feel for how good or bad he is doing the skill. Examples: I try to climb a slippery wall with a DC of 30, and my Atheletics skill is 5. I roll a 20. My character realizes that I put forth my best effort and still came nowhere close to succeeding. Or I am trying to hide, I roll a 1 on my stealth check, so my character realizes that stepping on twigs makes for a very bad chance at hiding, and now wants to do a better job hiding by avoiding the twigs. Or I am trying to move silently, I roll a 10 on my stealth check, and my friends with high Perception skill says, hey dude! I can still hear you walking! Try to be quieter!
But I do understand your point about metagaming. I think that might be part of the problem that I need to stop. I DM for a group of high school aged kids, and a few of them look for every advantage and exploit they can find in the rulebooks. That is how they enjoy the game.
Eh, if they enjoy it, they enjoy it. But it might do them some good to learn that there are consequences. Repeating the roll just so you can get a better number isn't actually playing the game. You might as well just let them pick their favorite number.
Yes, they should have some concept about how well they did, and how close they are to success. But to then take the next step of fixing all bad rolls by extra attempts, that's where you as the DM step in. Bad rolls are part of the game, and they need to be dealt with, not just sidestepped.
1. If a creature is sleeping, it is unconscious, correct? Do you still have to meet the requirement for staying out of Line of Sight to remain hidden from a creature that is sleeping. Technically, the state Blinded includes "You can't see any target" so you are good there, but unconscious does not have this effect. This would imply that if you tried to hide in front of a sleeping creature in order to duck under a table providing only normal cover with the intent to remain hidden there, you fail because it still had LoS. Seems silly. I have ruled in my games that sleeping creatures (whether normal or magic sleep) have closed eyes and can't see you, but of course can still detect you with Passive Perception -5 for sleeping.
2. In order to successfully become Hidden, you must make an opposed check versus the enemy's Passive Perception. An opposed check is defined as getting that number or higher. If you tie the result, does that mean you become Hidden? If so, then how do you handle its ongoing Passive Perception checks to seeing you later, since he now ties your Stealth check that you recorded? I guess you have to actually beat the enemy's Passive Perception, not just tie it, right?
