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I read earlier in this thread about the rogue power Chameleon and it brought up a question about its use. So a rogue/monk/Ghostwalker (who gets concealment from CA) just slid an enemy adjacent to him and with deadly draw will have CA until the end of is next turn. Assuming he remained hidden at the end of that turn against that enemy, would the expiration of CA(and with it concealment) cause Chameleon to trigger?

If so it seems like this would still be a pretty useful power for this type of character, (you still can keep hidden vs at least 1 enemy in a group) though less useful if you have some other form of easy to get concealment(like shadow walk)

That is what I was thinking, so then any situation where the PC is hidden because of concealment based on CA and then looses it off-turn would also qualify(so long is you keep to the rules of Hidden Club). 
So if you are being pushed/slid/teleported out of flanking, an enemy becoming undazed/unstunned/unblinded, as well as any of the "loose CA at the end of your turn" feats/powers.... Chameleon is there to save you (vs 1 target)

I was thinking of getting rid of it, this changes things for the times when stances like Soul Dance are not in play...

Thanks

Mar 6, 2012 -- 12:49PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

Mar 6, 2012 -- 10:15AM, Draelyn wrote:

So if you are being pushed/slid/teleported out of flanking, an enemy becoming undazed/unstunned/unblinded, as well as any of the "loose CA at the end of your turn" feats/powers.... Chameleon is there to save you (vs 1 target)

Chameleon works for all enemies, not just one.

You only have to BEAT the triggering enemy, but Chameleon then removes the requirements for Cover/Concealment entirely until the end of your next turn.

Edit:  Never mind, stealth-errata changed the wording to just "you can remain hidden from it without needing"

I have quick question to ask.Can you still hit creatures that are hidden or invisible with magic missle. I talk to customer service and they told me that magic missle still requires "line of sight". I personally seem to have a problem with players making perceptions roles to locate a creature that is hidden  eventhough the player  may be blind or the creature or person has concealment against which  doesn't give them "Line of sight" because of that condition. Then turn around and pop them with a magic missle that is a autohit spell because they made their perception roll. Iow I know about the line of effect rule but I was told also LOS is required also. Now you may see it differently then what customer service explained to me. Being an old school player spells like onbscuremnt, wall of fog, darkness, or any liine of sight blocking spell were good defenses against magic missle and that was part of their purpose. But 4th may see it differently. How important is "Line of Sight" for Magic missle.

Mar 9, 2012 -- 10:38PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Mar 9, 2012 -- 10:35PM, Mckalf wrote:

I have quick question to ask.Can you still hit creatures that are hidden or invisible with magic missle. I talk to customer service and they told me that magic missle still requires "line of sight".

Yes you can still target Invisible or Hidden target with Magic Missile since it doesn't require you to see the target in order to attack them (ie. Target: one creature that you can see).

For a Hidden creature, you'd still need to guess the correct square it occupy first as per Targeting What You Can't See (RC 221)


In order word, you never ever need Line of Sight to use a Power on a target unless the Power specifically say so. You'll simply take the proper penalty for Total Concealment (-5 attack roll)  if its a Ranged or Melee Power (and has an attack roll). Magic Missile is a Ranged Attack Power that has no attack roll and doesn't require sight to the target. CS was evidently incorrect again.

Yes you can still target Invisible or Hidden target with Magic Missile since it doesn't require you to see the target in order to attack them (ie. Target: one creature that you can see).


I'm confused now. If you can't see it does it mea you can still target it? I figured the spell just fails to go off since you can't see it being its an auto hit spell that requires a target you can see. but if I'm reading total concealment right it doesn't mean you can't see the creature which is weird or invisibility if you make your perception roll. Or just because your perception allows you to know what square a monster is in doesnt mean you can see it or does it? I guess it does which is weird to me again. That doesn't balance well with the system and the game to me. but that is my opinion. there is no way to conunter act that spell except for a brooch or magic protection against. In older editions "Line of sight' was very important. This is how much that ruling has changed things in game mechanics For example Now if I put up a " Wall of Fog" the hybrid Ranger/wizard with magic missle as his ranged basic and weapon implement bow can now make a perception roll to see or locate me on the other side of my wall because it doesn't block "line of effect",but "Line of Sight" and can ping me with magic missle if he makes his perception roll. Magic missle may do piddly damage at low levels, but at high leves its effective. Add a stance to that combo and you have a auto hitting feature that can not be counteracted except by a magic items.  I'll see what customers service post because I asked them to post something soon clarifying it because I get tired of "Rules Auditors,lawyers"  doing things like "Reading Rules as Written" as opposed to Reading the "Rules as Intended". There are some unwriiten rules that are just plain common sense so to speak. But that is my opinion. If you are correct in your explanation I will except it and go tell my fellow gaming companion that I guess you were right eventhough I do not quite agree with it.

Also, don't confuse "line of sight" with "line of effect". LoS just hands out a penalty for melee and ranged powers. But you need line of effect for 99% of stuff you do, in DND 4. But "hidden" does not hinder LoE, just LoS, so magic missile works perfectly.