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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 10:23AM
#21
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You should put this in a blog post or wiki page for easy linking.
Not that the thread isn't linkable, but...
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 12:08PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2009
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You are wrong. This says "Hidden means Silent and Invisible". In formal logic you'd use the "implies" operator - but neither of those are transitive.
"Oranges are fruits, and high in vitamin C". At no point does this statement EVER mean that "being a fruit" and "having a lot of vitamin C" causes you to be an orange.
And yet, you're incredibly wrong as well.
"Oranges are fruits, and oranges are high in vitamin C" is a statement that IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNRELATED to the statement "hidden means silent and invisible".
An analagous statement would be "being a square means you are a rectangle". Therefore all squares are rectangles. Your response is meaningless, and does not address the point that the rules clearly say "silent and invisible" and "hidden" are the same state.
And your further digressions about deafness and blindness and senses, etc, are equally wrong: You are only ever Hidden if something SPECIFICALLY SAYS you are Hidden, no matter how impaired your target is, and a creature can ALWAYS roll Perception to detect a Hidden creature unless something SPECIFICALLY prohibits it. Being blind gives a penalty, it doesn't prevent you from rolling, THEREFORE YOU CAN STILL ROLL.
I don't believe I mentioned a creature being blind alone. I believe I mentioned a creature having no seneses with which it could roll Perception available to it.
Regardless, it was a tangent, and I'll leave it alone, because it seems to have angered you that I disagree with you.
But if you go around a corner out of sight of everyone (effectively invisible) and don't make any sounds (silent) you still aren't hidden if you don't make a Stealth check. So while it may seem synonymous, the rules just don't work that way.
"Effectively" invisible is not invisible. Being around a corner gives you total concealment, not invisibility; they're not the same thing.
And there are only two ways in-game to become silent, one being a stealth check and the other being an assassin power that makes you "silent and invisible", as far as I know, so it's not like anyone can just stand there being quiet and claim they're making no sound. Something has to specifically say they're being silent.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 12:21PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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"being a square means you are a rectangle" is a little misleading too though. I could truthfully say, "Being tall means you are able to reach high places easily" without implying that the definition of tall is "able to reach high places easily."
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 12:21PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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An analagous statement would be "being a square means you are a rectangle". Therefore all squares are rectangles. Your response is meaningless, and does not address the point that the rules clearly say "silent and invisible" and "hidden" are the same state.
That's because the rules don't say any such thing. They say that when you are hidden, you are silent and invisible. It's not a reversible statement.
Being a square means you are a rectangle does not mean that all retangles are squares. That is the equivilent of your statement that being silent and invisible means that you are hidden. Just as all squares are retangles but a retangle is not always square, when you are hidden you are silent and invisible but when you are silent and invisible you are not always hidden. Only if you became hidden, and that is why you are silent and invisible.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 12:45PM
#25
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Anything not clear? Tell me, I'll add it to the post.
Excellent explanation of the stealth rules. Very clear. I'm sure I'll direct many a person to this post.
I would change one small thing: In the Fifth rule, you state that an enemy who moves into your space finds you. It would be more accurate to state that if an enemy tries to move into your space, you are no longer hidden from them. (They don't need to succeed in entering your square.)
I've made a second pass through and edited some wordings, including this correction. Thanks.
Thank you for your work here.
You're welcome! I found myself writing pieces of this post over and over again in various threads. I figured sitting down to write it ONCE and link it would be better.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 12:51PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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You could add a statement about how if you stop being hidden, you still retain the benefits of being hidden until the end of your current action. That's pretty important.
Edit - I think it is equivalent to say that you don't stop being hidden until the end of an action that breaks stealth. Which is kind of symmetric with the fact that you don't start being hidden until the end of the action you use to hide.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 12:52PM
#27
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You could add a statement about how if you stop being hidden, you retain the benefits of it until the end of your current action. That's pretty important.
Yes! Yes it is! Adding that now.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 4:09PM
#28
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- Here be Dragons next 100 km
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Anything not clear? Tell me, I'll add it to the post.
Excellent summary. I think you've covered just about everything aside from the still-controversial questions - which we should probably not drag into this thread, to avoid muddying the waters
I'm happy to include them in a "here is what you must ask your GM about" section. What questions do you have?
I was just thinking of some of the subjects that didn't reach a clear consensus when discussed recently, like whether a power which explicitly allows you to make a Stealth check allows you to sidestep the entry requirements for Hidden Club, and the question of how easy it is for one person to accurately convey a hidden creature's location to his allies through speech or gesture, and whether doing so makes the subject not-hidden to them or simply narrows down which square to attack.
The latter, in particular, I'd consider a question to be asked between individual groups and their DMs, and one worth clearing up in advance - it's not something you want to get bogged-down on during combat.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 4:47PM
#29
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I was just thinking of some of the subjects that didn't reach a clear consensus when discussed recently, like whether a power which explicitly allows you to make a Stealth check allows you to sidestep the entry requirements for Hidden Club,
The practical answer to that *was* "No" until the rules changed to say "any power that includes a move may allow you to become Hidden". Now, those statements are pointless unless they bypass the normal requirements. Which is not to say that they're NOT pointless, because updates often make previous text redundant, but they might be intended to allow rulebreaking.
and the question of how easy it is for one person to accurately convey a hidden creature's location to his allies through speech or gesture, and whether doing so makes the subject not-hidden to them or simply narrows down which square to attack.
The latter, in particular, I'd consider a question to be asked between individual groups and their DMs, and one worth clearing up in advance - it's not something you want to get bogged-down on during combat.
Whether or not it renders you non-Hidden is obvious: No. It's not one of the conditions for ending Hidden, therefore Hidden doesn't end. You are TOTALLY allowed to know what square a Hidden person is in - in fact, you know what square EVERY Hidden person is in as soon as they become Hidden, because you knew where they were before they became Hidden. Simply knowing the square is obviously not good enough.
The question of how hard it is to say "two squares north, one square east" in-game is unrelated.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 4:57PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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The question of how hard it is to say "two squares north, one square east" in-game is unrelated.
Perhaps, but a "things you should ask your DM" section might be good, to point out things likely to have table variation that's best to know about ahead of time. It would suck to go through the effort of becoming hidden and then moving and then having the one monster with a good perception score ruin the effort if you didn't know it was a possibility.
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