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3 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2010 - 8:28PM
#11
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Unless the power specifically says it ends when you attack, it does not. There is no general rule that states invisibility ends when you attack.
So when a power states that invisibility ends when you attack...and then you attack, does that count as a "duration" for which an unseen mage PP can roll a d20 to see if they remain invisible?
I'd say no. Durations are things like 'until the end of your next turn' 'end of the encounter' or the like.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2010 - 8:35PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy.
The statement "which means X" means, that "hidden" is synonymous with "silent and invisible".
Synonyms are transitive. Silent and invisible is the same state as hidden.
edit;
(I'm also pretty sure that it is impossible to make a Perception check if you're blind and deaf and have no special senses, which would mean that all enemies who are eligible to become hidden are hidden, but the synonymous argument is sufficient in my opinion, because A = B means B = A.)
But if you go around a corner out of sight of everyone (effectively invisible) and don't make any sounds (silent) you still aren't hidden if you don't make a Stealth check. So while it may seem synonymous, the rules just don't work that way.
Also since the targeting invisible creatures rules (post errata) state: "Invisible Creatures and Stealth: If an invisible creature is hidden from you (See "Stealth"), you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can’t see it."
They leave it pretty open to what exactly you are sensing. So you're blind and deaf. Okay, if no one's hidden via Stealth, you can still sense their presence. The only way to be hidden is via stealth. If you are blind and deaf, enemies can use stealth to become hidden, but they aren't hidden if they don't.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 12:17AM
#13
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- Here be Dragons next 100 km
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Anything not clear? Tell me, I'll add it to the post.
Excellent summary. I think you've covered just about everything aside from the still-controversial questions - which we should probably not drag into this thread, to avoid muddying the waters.
The only thing I'd suggest adding, though it's somewhat peripheral to the Stealth issue, is the penalties (or lack thereof) for attacking unseen creatures - something like "Even if the attacker guesses the right square, ranged or melee attacks still take a -5 penalty against Hidden targets. However, Close or Area attacks - i.e. anything that's a Burst, a Blast, a Wall or a Zone - take no penalty to attacks against unseen foes, so long as that creature's square is within the affected area."
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 7:09AM
#14
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From Stealth, in the compendium, emphasis mine:
Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy.
The statement "which means X" means, that "hidden" is synonymous with "silent and invisible".
You are wrong. This says "Hidden means Silent and Invisible". In formal logic you'd use the "implies" operator - but neither of those are transitive.
"Oranges are fruits, and high in vitamin C". At no point does this statement EVER mean that "being a fruit" and "having a lot of vitamin C" causes you to be an orange.
Hidden *causes* Silent and Invisible. Silent and Invisible does not cause Hidden. And your further digressions about deafness and blindness and senses, etc, are equally wrong: You are only ever Hidden if something SPECIFICALLY SAYS you are Hidden, no matter how impaired your target is, and a creature can ALWAYS roll Perception to detect a Hidden creature unless something SPECIFICALLY prohibits it. Being blind gives a penalty, it doesn't prevent you from rolling, THEREFORE YOU CAN STILL ROLL.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 7:11AM
#15
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Anything not clear? Tell me, I'll add it to the post.
Excellent summary. I think you've covered just about everything aside from the still-controversial questions - which we should probably not drag into this thread, to avoid muddying the waters
I'm happy to include them in a "here is what you must ask your GM about" section. What questions do you have?
As well, I'm thinking about putting in a section about common POWERS and questions about becoming Hidden - things like "the rogue in my group is using Chameleon CONSTANTLY and he's never not Hidden!", that kind of thing.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 7:16AM
#16
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I could! What are your questions? Invisibility vs Combat Advantage, vs When Invisibility Ends.... what do you want to know?
It might be good to note that becoming Hidden makes you invisible (and silent) until you lose concealment. Meaning that you do not have to lose invisibility or the Hidden Condition when a power granting invisibility shuts off, if you also have simple concealment when that occurs.
Interestingly, though, your invisibility at that point is heavily selective - it might only apply to a single creature. For bonus points, imagine this: Your invisibility wears off but you're hidden from one of your two enemies. You're still invisible to one, but not the other. Then the party's Ranger, Avenger, Barbarian, and Rogue and go after the one guy and kill him... and you're no longer invisible to ANYONE.
I strongly suspect that the Unseen Mage and the like want to consider magical invisibility and stealth-based invisibility as separate concepts, for simplicity.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 7:59AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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A common question: If a power tells me to make a Stealth check, do I still have to meet the normal requirements for becoming hidden?
Also, about the far away creatures, monsters in the next encounter, etc: you can't take the stealth rules too seriously in that case. Sure, you might say that there is a -500 situational penalty to perception to locate a creature in the next town over, but RAW, if that creature does something to break stealth, then (as you emphasize) you don't need a perception check to know where it is. I think it would be better to just say that the stealth rules are for use during combat encounters. Adjudicating stealth outside of combat is really up to the DM.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 9:17AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2008
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Does Blind / Deaf (-10 to Perception checks) apply to passives?
If they do the case falls to the waterfall scenario... Make your check, they have a -20 to their passive perception!
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 10:01AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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A common question: If a power tells me to make a Stealth check, do I still have to meet the normal requirements for becoming hidden?
That's really two critical sub-questions, the first of which has been heavily debated. The answer to both is probably technically yes (for the same reason), but as I said, debated.
If a power tells me to make a Stealth check, do I still need to have Total Concealment or Superior Cover relative to a creature to make the check against that creature?
If a power tells me to make a Stealth check, and that action caused me to become unhidden, am I still prohibited from making the stealth check?
Note that if the answer to the latter is yes, any power that attacks then allows you to make a stealth check just doesn't work if you started hidden. Ones that allow you to hide before the attack, then attack, then hide again never work.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 27, 2010 - 10:08AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Anything not clear? Tell me, I'll add it to the post.
Excellent explanation of the stealth rules. Very clear. I'm sure I'll direct many a person to this post.
I would change one small thing: In the Fifth rule, you state that an enemy who moves into your space finds you. It would be more accurate to state that if an enemy tries to move into your space, you are no longer hidden from them. (They don't need to succeed in entering your square.)
Thank you for your work here.
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