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Dec 18, 2012 -- 6:00PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

Dec 18, 2012 -- 5:59PM, DSMReference wrote:

Dec 18, 2012 -- 5:58PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

Irrelevant.  Succeed or fail, trying to enter a Hidden creature's space ends Hidden.

I think the words used are relevant, somehow. Trying is not succeeding. Not in English, at any rate.

"Trying" implies that it is the ATTEMPT that matters, regardless of success or failure.  If it was meant to only break Hidden on a failure, it would say that FAILING to enter a Hidden creature's space ends Hidden.

Also:  Ohgod I can't keep a straight face, while suggesting that WotC's current crop of D&D writers would say something different if they MEANT something different.  Because, really, the evidence shows?  They have NO IDEA what they're saying, or that they have any clue what they're saying MEANS.

At the same time, my interpretation is non-broken, and consistent.  And so you should do that.  And houserule it if you find it broken regardless.

Dec 18, 2012 -- 6:05PM, DSMReference wrote:

Dec 18, 2012 -- 6:02PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

Also:  Ohgod I can't keep a straight face, while suggesting that WotC's current crop of D&D writers would say something different if they MEANT something different.  Because, really, the evidence shows?  They have NO IDEA what they're saying, or that they have any clue what they're saying MEANS.

At the same time, my interpretation is non-broken, and consistent.  And so you should do that.  And houserule it if you find it broken regardless.

Even assuming WotC's writers are incompetent, this is what they wrote.

Even acknowledging that they're incompetent, they wrote that THE ATTEMPT is what matters.  And a successful attempt is equally "an attempt" to a failed attempt.

And, oh, also, by the way, this is the non-abusive rule.  So the fact that I think they got it right by accident doesn't change that it's right.

Dec 18, 2012 -- 2:37PM, DSMReference wrote:

The only way you can actually do it is stupidly feat intensive. Versatile Duelist+Wield a heavy blade+heavy blade opportunity+Deft Strike+Ghostwalker Style+Opportunity Sidestep+Shift Enhancers (minimum +2 to shifting, unless you have Improved Cunning Sneak, which is yet another feat). Or you could be a Thief, take the Thief PP, and at 16 just be Hidden. Forever. With no possibility of being broken. Silly brokenly worded feature. Also bear in mind you need some kind of concealment, so unless you're near level 18 and get Phantom Chaussers, you're either sinking other feats, hybriding (either Warlock or Assassin and then MCing into whichever you didn't hybrid for Cursed Shadow so you have Shadow Walk), or doing something else that is potentially even more feats (you're into Paragon before this all works, btw).

Also really ought to be a Pixie, since a perma-stealth build that automatically beats tremorsense is a good deal of the way to beating common things that defeat such builds.

Yes, I know it would not work until paragon because it needs 2 paragon feats.
So, how about a drow
Versatile Duelist
Risky Shift
Heavy Blade Expertise
Mark of Sentinel
Improved Cunning Sneak (Can't find any items that increase shift distance)
Shadowslip (or something other)
Heavy Blade Opportunity
Opportunity Sidestep
Level 12, with Armor of Dark Deeds and Acrobatic Strike.

Combat Starts:
Cloud of Darkness and Shadowslip to hide. Move next to highest initiative enemy.
Enemy goes, I get OA, I Acrobatic Strike. Damage damage damage, and then from Acrobatic Strike:

Effect: Before or after the attack, you shift 1 square.

I shift 2 because or risky shift, and I qualify my improved cunning sneak of 2 squares, and concealment from armor of dark deeds because I attacked with CA.

Question: Can I use the acrobatic strike when hidden, attack and use its effect to move and rehide? I thought that you could not rehide from the same action that exposed you. What is the answer?

Either way, I get to free action shift again 2 squares because of Mark of Sentinel + risky shift, and hide. (or stay hidden) Then I get to shift as a free action again for opportunity sidestep + risky shift, and hide. (or stay hidden).

If I could find some items that increased shift distance, you could potentially cover a large area. I know the armor is level 14, but if you were playing the character from level 1, you could potentially get it by level 12. If not, then a level 13 character at creation could do this.

Some more questions:
How does Purple Dragon (theme) Focused Discipline interact with HBO?
 Tactics: After you hit an enemy with a melee basic attack, you can shift 1 square as a free action
Am I hitting with a MBA that got swapped to an at-will via HBO... or because it got swapped it becomes an at-will and the stance does nothing?

Thank you.