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Dec 29, 2012 -- 11:21AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

You can also check out The Rule of Hidden Club stickied up on the Rule Q&A for more on the topics.

You know that's the thread you're in right now, right?

Dec 29, 2012 -- 2:32PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

Dec 29, 2012 -- 11:21AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

You can also check out The Rule of Hidden Club stickied up on the Rule Q&A for more on the topics.

You know that's the thread you're in right now, right?

You can read more about the thread you are in here:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

 

Hi, I wonder about the two feats 'Weapon Expertise (Spear)' and 'Spear Expertise'. Are they two different feats, or what? Character builder lets me choose both and regard them as different, but I don't seem to get bonus from both if I take them. How does it work?

Dec 30, 2012 -- 1:04AM, LJSLarsson wrote:

Hi, I wonder about the two feats 'Weapon Expertise (Spear)' and 'Spear Expertise'. Are they two different feats, or what? Character builder lets me choose both and regard them as different, but I don't seem to get bonus from both if I take them. How does it work?

The names of these feats are pretty similar, they are still two completely different feats, although their purpose is the same: a math fix, to reduce the difference in monsters increasing defenses, compared to lower increasing attack bonuses of players. Both feats provide a bonus to attack rolls of the type  "feat", but bonuses of the same type do not stack. So theres no reason to take both.

Spear Expertise
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to weapon attack rolls that you make with a spear. When charging, you also gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls of weapon attacks that you make with a spear. Both of these bonuses increase to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.

Weapon Expertise (Any Weapon)
Heroic Tier
Benefit: Choose a weapon group. You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls with any weapon power you use with a weapon from that group. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon group.

Dec 30, 2012 -- 2:17AM, crayne wrote:

Both feats provide a bonus to attack rolls of the type  "feat", but bonuses of the same type do not stack. So theres no reason to take both.

Oh! Feat bonuses doesn't stack? That explains it. Thanks. :-)

Dec 30, 2012 -- 3:04AM, LJSLarsson wrote:

Dec 30, 2012 -- 2:17AM, crayne wrote:

Both feats provide a bonus to attack rolls of the type  "feat", but bonuses of the same type do not stack. So theres no reason to take both.

Oh! Feat bonuses doesn't stack? That explains it. Thanks. :-)

Bonuses of the same type (the type being the word between the number and the word 'bonus' never stack.

Dec 29, 2012 -- 2:32PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

You know that's the thread you're in right now, right?

Oops no, had too many windows open let me scratch that 

Hello,

We have 2 characters who use stealth (one hybrid rogue, one multiclass rogue), and I had a question.
In the rules at the beginning you said that you're automatically found when an enemy walks INTO your square.
We always play that when an enemy is directly in front of you (regardless of the distance), you don't have total concealment (or any concealment), so he automatically sees you. Also, when he is in a square adjacent to you, he can still feel you moving / being there since he's standing right next to you. So any time a creature can see you without you having concealment from anything other than the stealth roll itself, or stands adjacent to you, you get kicked out of the Hidden Club. 
Are we playing this right?

You're playing it right in that you need concealment or cover from something other than Hidden, in order to maintain Hidden.  You're not playing it right in any of the 'standing next to someone removes concealment' stuff.  You're conflating the rules for obscured terrain there, I think.

I believe the multiclass rogue has a ability that makes her invisible, which allows you to make a stealth check and become hidden. She also plays mostly melee, so she could technically become invisible, shift one square to end adjecent to an enemy, roll a stealth chech and become hidden.
We say that this is ridiculous since she's standing adjacent to him, breathing in his.. legs (halfling) so he could still feel her and therefor she is not hidden. 

Different thing: with move 0, you can still make a stealth check if, for example, you stand up. We have had people that at the start of their turn drop prone (free action), then stand up and make a (succesfull) stealth check, and then attack with combat advantage. 

Is this allowed? 
 

Dropping Prone is a minor action.  Other than that, yes.

And yes, you can hide when you're in the square adjacent to someone.  You may find it ridiculous, but that is what the rules state.

Worth bearing in mind that squares are 5ft by 5ft.  You could be up to 10ft from someone when you get hidden from them.  Also that you're talking about a fluid narrative situation broken down by mechanical necessity into turns and actions.  So the rogue isn't discreetly moving out from cover completely visibly, rolling a check and disappearing right in front of the guy's eyes before shanking him (though, you could play it that way if you wanted), he's darting out from cover unnoticed, and stabbing the buy before he's turned round.

Also that the whole point of the Cunning Sneak Rogue is that he's almost supernaturally good at being sneaky.  He's the sort of guy who can disappear in broad daylight to moment your back is turned.

Thanks for the clarification  

And we seriously played 3 years with dropping prone as a free action... Hmm.. time to read the rules more carefully then.  

Jan 13, 2013 -- 3:53PM, Darcy91 wrote:

Thanks for the clarification  

And we seriously played 3 years with dropping prone as a free action... Hmm.. time to read the rules more carefully then.  

Even then, if they've got Superior Cover/Total Concealment, they can spend a move action to "Shift 0" and then roll Stealth when they're done.

If they don't have SC/TC while standing, they need to end a Move or a Move Action *while prone* to roll Stealth.

Jan 13, 2013 -- 3:56PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

Jan 13, 2013 -- 3:53PM, Darcy91 wrote:

Thanks for the clarification  

And we seriously played 3 years with dropping prone as a free action... Hmm.. time to read the rules more carefully then.  

Even then, if they've got Superior Cover/Total Concealment, they can spend a move action to "Shift 0" and then roll Stealth when they're done.

If they don't have SC/TC while standing, they need to end a Move or a Move Action *while prone* to roll Stealth.

Um, what?  Even prone, they still need SC/TC to roll a steath check to hide.  There is no rule anywhere which says that you can hide while prone without SC/TC....

Jan 14, 2013 -- 4:44PM, Undrhil wrote:

Jan 13, 2013 -- 3:56PM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

Jan 13, 2013 -- 3:53PM, Darcy91 wrote:

Thanks for the clarification  

And we seriously played 3 years with dropping prone as a free action... Hmm.. time to read the rules more carefully then.  

Even then, if they've got Superior Cover/Total Concealment, they can spend a move action to "Shift 0" and then roll Stealth when they're done.

If they don't have SC/TC while standing, they need to end a Move or a Move Action *while prone* to roll Stealth.

Um, what?  Even prone, they still need SC/TC to roll a steath check to hide.  There is no rule anywhere which says that you can hide while prone without SC/TC....

They're dropping prone to get SC/TC, I thought.  As in, they have it while Prone, but only normal C/C while standing.

This isn't a general rule, it's a description of a specific situation.

They dropped prone in order to get up = move action 
They need the move action to be allowed to make a stealth check. We didn't know about shift 0 etc.  

Hi,

 I have a few questions regarding Invisibility & Hidden that have come up during play.

 

INVISIBLE: ( As per the Players Handbook)

✦ You can’t be seen by normal forms of vision. Total Concealment (–5 Penalty to Attack Rolls)

✦ You have combat advantage against any enemy that can’t see you.

✦ You don’t provoke opportunity attacks from enemies that can’t see you.

 

1. Have these benefits been changed or do Invisible creatures still get all of these?
2. If one enemy detects where I am,  am I still Hidden from the other enemies?
3. If I move 2 squares or less do I have to reroll stealth to become hidden again or do  I retain hidden?

 

1: Those parts of Invisible are still correct.

2: You remain Hidden to allother enemies you're still in the club from, but the one which detected you can point out in which square you are, so when his allies guess, they guess right.

3: Can't remember offhand I'm afraid.

Jan 21, 2013 -- 7:04AM, Dansun wrote:

If I move 2 squares or less do I have to reroll stealth to become hidden again or do  I retain hidden?

You remain hidden. You have to move more than 2 squares to make a Stealth check to remain hidden.

RC 152 Keep Still: If the creature moves more than 2 squares during an action, it must make a Stealth check to remain hidden

So, in my admittedly very newbie group there has been a lot of confusion as to what happens when you can't see an enemy. So I've done a bit of research and put together this cheat sheet, and I wanted to double check it with you fine folks before I presented it. I know it doesn't discuss Hidden, but I thought it was related enough.

So, is there anything here that is completely false? Anything important missing? I'm very grateful for answers!

Seeing is Believing

When can I not see my enemy?

There are many situations in which you're not able to see an enemy. Some common ones are:

- The enemy is not in your line of sight.
- You're blinded or under another similar condition.
- The enemy is invisible.
- The enemy is in a totally obscured square.
- The enemy is in a heavily obscured square and not adjacent to you.
- The enemy has total concealment.

Things like darkvision or blindsight can help you see the enemy in certain situations.

What changes when I cannot see the enemy?

Sight concerns many things, but the most general ones are:

- You take a -5 penalty on all melee and ranged attack rolls against the enemy.
- You can't gain combat advantage against the enemy. Not in any way. Not possible.
- The enemy has combat advantage on all attacks against you (if it can see you).
- You can't flank the enemy.
- The enemy doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from you. This applies only to the normal opportunity attack, other opportunity actions may still work.

What doesn't change?

Some things are not affected by being unable to see the enemy, but easy to believe they are. For example:

- Close and area attacks don't suffer the -5 penalty. You still can't gain combat advantage for those attacks though.
- You still know exactly where the enemy is and what it's doing.

What about stealth rolls?

Those cause the enemy to become hidden, which includes among other thing that it can't be seen. For more information about hidden, google > "rules of hidden club" d&d <.

That's all accurate, except for 'totally concealed square', which doesn't really exist - you're thinking of Heavily Obscured.  If they have Total Concealment for whatever reason, you can;t see them.

Jan 23, 2013 -- 5:29AM, thespaceinvader wrote:

That's all accurate, except for 'totally concealed square', which doesn't really exist - you're thinking of Heavily Obscured.  If they have Total Concealment for whatever reason, you can;t see them.

Got it! Updated the post with the proper terms. Thanks a bunch!

Looks good to me, except totally obscured, as thespaceinvader pointed out.
You may add those to situations in which you're not able to see an enemy;

- The enemty has total concealment.
- The enemy is hidden.
- You cannot see.  (ex. Mind Shadows, Beguiling Ballad, Sandman's Veil etc..)

Jan 23, 2013 -- 6:38AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

You may add those to situations in which you're not able to see an enemy;

- The enemty has total concealment.
- The enemy is hidden.
- The enemy cannot see by any means (ex. Mind Shadows, Beguiling Ballad, Sandman's Veil etc..)

Good points! I fear that including Hidden in the list of situations will only confuse my group, but I'll add another section about it at the bottom. Thanks!

Jan 23, 2013 -- 6:49AM, Forehead wrote:

Jan 23, 2013 -- 6:38AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

You may add those to situations in which you're not able to see an enemy;

- The enemty has total concealment.
- The enemy is hidden.
- The enemy cannot see by any means (ex. Mind Shadows, Beguiling Ballad, Sandman's Veil etc..)

Good points! I fear that including Hidden in the list of situations will only confuse my group, but I'll add another section about it at the bottom. Thanks!

I think the best distinction to make between "can't be seen" and "hidden" is that if a creature is hidden, you have no idea where it is and have to guess.
  If a creature "can't be seen", you still know what general area it is in because it hasn't moved, or is making noise, etc, and you can always guess the correct square for targeting, just at a penalty to hit.
 
A creature that can't be seen must actively use stealth to become hidden.

The part that's usually most confusing to new players (especially those who played prior versions) is that a creature that becomes invisible is not automatically hidden, and you still know exactly what space it is in.

Jan 23, 2013 -- 12:43PM, RisingZan wrote:

The part that's usually most confusing to new players (especially those who played prior versions) is that a creature that becomes invisible is not automatically hidden, and you still know exactly what space it is in.

I don't think it's going to be a problem, at least not right now. The PCs don't really like stealthing in combat, and I'll inform the DM to check out this thread before throwing in any sneaky monsters!

 
"The part that's usually most confusing to new players (especially those who played prior versions) is that a creature that becomes invisible is not automatically hidden, and you still know exactly what space it is in."


The number of powers writen with the mistaken belief that becoming invisible = enemies haveing no clue as to where you could be dose not help

Jan 23, 2013 -- 5:27PM, Sea-Envy wrote:

 
"The part that's usually most confusing to new players (especially those who played prior versions) is that a creature that becomes invisible is not automatically hidden, and you still know exactly what space it is in."


The number of powers writen with the mistaken belief that becoming invisible = enemies haveing no clue as to where you could be dose not help

Which ones, in particular?  I have no shame about making a list.

Can't remember name but i think there is a warlock power where you turn invisible and teleport and it seems to imply that they would have no clue as to your location

Do you refer to powers like Raven's Glamor, Clever Escape and Crystal Duplicate which let you become invisible and teleport while leaving behind an illusionary duplicate of yourself ?

I think so...
Although I thought there was at least one with out the illusion. 

Taking 10 or Taking 20 on stealth checks...

Okay I know you can't take 10 or take 20 in combat or other situations where you are hurried, rushed, or threatened. My question pertains to things that happen outside of combat.

So here is my theoretical scenario: The players are all in a room, separated by a 100 foot twisting hall that leads to another room where the monsters are playing a boardgame or singing or whatever, all distracted and making so much noise that the players know there is something going on and are therefore aware that there will be monsters there. The player party decides to sent its ranger, with stealth skill of 9, down the hall to investigate.

1) Can the PC ranger hide while in his current room? He meets all the requirements to attempt a stealth check in terms of being out of sight, but really there are no monsters to (currently) oppose his stealth check. So I assume he automatically succeeds, and then slowly (2 squares per move, and staying under cover or concealment) proceed down the hall to try to sneak up and spy on the monsters. When he gets within range of the monsters, he compares his stealth check to their passive perception to see if he gets noticed.

2) Assuming the PC ranger can hide while in his current room, it seems reasonable that if he chooses, since he is not in combat or being rushed, that he can opt to take 10 for his stealth check before proceeding down the hall?

3) And assuming the PC ranger has plenty of time, it seems reasonable that if he chooses, since he is not in combat or being rushed, that he can continue rolling stealth checks to hide until he gets a roll that he likes before proceeding down the hall, or optionally just take 20 since he will get that roll eventually anyways?

As DM, when a player tried this, I ruled that the stealth check only occurs at the moment that an enemy has its first chance to possibly notice the PC, ie when the PC is just outside the room within range of hearing by the monsters. But the player says that RAW does not prevent him from becoming hidden outside of range of detection and then following the rules saying that he remains hidden until he takes an action that makes him not hidden, thus enabling him to bring his stealth roll of 20 with him down the hall. Help please!? 

As far as I know there is no taking 20 in 4e, the only exception being when there are no dangers, no penalty for failure (DMG page 41). With monsters in the adjacent room that may or may not notice him, with a chance that the player rolls a one (stubs his toe and curses), there is an element of penalty. Does that help ?

Baldhermit, I am talking about a scenario where the player does indeed have no consequences from failing the skill check.

As you pointed out, page 41 of DMG describes an example of "taking 20" when it describes searching a room. The point that section in the DMG makes is that if a player is not under a time constaint and wants to continue making perception checks indefinitely, with no negative consequences from any failed checks, eventually he will roll a 20, and thus can just take a 20 assuming they have a minute or two to spend searching.

This could be extrapolated to other skill checks that do not have negative consequences, such as in my example in my original post, where a player is making a stealth check so far away from any monsters, that there is no possible bad effect from making a low roll. The monsters who are playing loud music in a room 100 feet down a winding hall with a thick door and totally distracted have no chance of detecting the player even if the player rolls a 1.

So can the player just keep rolling stealth checks until he gets a 20 before proceeding down the hall, thus remaining hidden until he becomes not hidden? Or should the stealth check only be made at the point where a monster has at least a remote chance of detecting a player, so that there can then be a negative consequence of a failed check?

 If there are absolutely no consequences for failing a roll, why are you rolling?

 If the monsters are making so much noise that they'd never see the player coming, you simply say, "Okay, you sneak up on them. How close do you want to get to them?"... Or decide for yourself how close the character can get without being detected.

What Mad Jack said.

I understand what you are saying. What if the players just want to do their "take 20" stealth check in one room in order to sneak up on the next room because they suspect their will be monsters?

I assume by your response of "why are you rolling" means that I am correct then in assuming they can hide all they want by themselves, but the "real" stealth check occurs when they are within detection range of the monsters in the next room? ie no taking 20 while far from the next encounter? 

Feb 10, 2013 -- 3:23PM, peteincary wrote:

I understand what you are saying. What if the players just want to do their "take 20" stealth check in one room in order to sneak up on the next room because they suspect their will be monsters?

When nobody is looking for them, they can try to hide as much as they want.

Feb 10, 2013 -- 3:23PM, peteincary wrote:

I assume by your response of "why are you rolling" means that I am correct then in assuming they can hide all they want by themselves, but the "real" stealth check occurs when they are within detection range of the monsters in the next room? ie no taking 20 while far from the next encounter? 

Uh, yes?  Because once there's a chance that someone might find them, they need to roll.

Okay excellent thanks so much! This thread has hugely enhanced my understanding of how stealth works.

i have a short question about the power chameleon - i got unlucky via search function:

The Trigger of the power is "You are hidden and lose cover or concealment against an enemy". Can i "lose cover" via moving out of cover or concealment, for example towards an enemy to get CA and attack him - with losing my hidden status? Or is "loes cover or concealment" saying that the wall is destroyed or an enemy move forward in line of sight?

Feb 19, 2013 -- 1:09PM, elsar wrote:

i have a short question about the power chameleon - i got unlucky via search function:

The Trigger of the power is "You are hidden and lose cover or concealment against an enemy". Can i "lose cover" via moving out of cover or concealment,

Yes.  However, Chameleon is an Immediate Action - you can't take it on your own turn.

Feb 19, 2013 -- 1:09PM, elsar wrote:

for example towards an enemy to get CA and attack him - with losing my hidden status? Or is "loes cover or concealment" saying that the wall is destroyed or an enemy move forward in line of sight?

Those work, as would "I am forcibly moved into LOS" or something else.  As long as it's not your turn and you haven't used any other Immediate actions this round, you're good.

The "not your turn" thing is a problem, though.

Did i understand you right that if i decide to move - often i will do this in my turn - i cannot get any benefit from Chameleon cause of his Immediate actions requirement?

So to speak if i want to make my move action towards the enemy, losing my hidden status on the first step out of my cover  - i am not stealthed any more -, chameleon doesn't activate and i don't get CA ?

Correct.

Suddenly Chameleon feels like a real bad choice :/ - The only Example where Chameleon comes in handy is waiting behind a cover/corner and stab someone from behind. are there any other situations Chameleon can shine ? 

Anytime someone is actively searching for you and you're relying on actual terrain rather than on magical concealment effects.  It's aimed more at the 'real world' type of rogue than is actually typical in most games - the only ones who actually try hiding often are the ones who can hide independent of terrain.

Chameleon is there for when people do things like run around the pillar you're hiding behind.  You go OHCRAP and then stay hidden.  That this is not a common situation in actual play wasn't really taken into account. 

It's far more useful in non-combat stealthing situations, actually.  Just about anyone with a decent Stealth check may be asked to sneak into someplace out of (or just prior to) combat, and the ability to not get spotted if you get spotted can be a make-or-break moment.

Is there a way to avoid Blindsight by mid epic tier? I am a Thief and used my Multiclass already for Spiked Chain. I am currently flying to avoid tremorsense but it has been eluded that our campaign may soon be fighting Divine beings who have a fair chance of having Blindsight or Truesight. The DM gave me this warning because Stealth is core to my playstyle and so I have a chance to react to the potential before it happens.

I am a Thief of Legend so I may be able to steal their blindsight from them but it will be up to DM adjudication.

Not really, no.  Thief of Legend at 30 will override all forms of detection, however.

I think there was a stealth LV 2 enc skill util power, which prevents enemies from detecting you, but only until end of your next turn.

Grayflower Perfume (lvl 10 consumable) helps you for a turn against blindsight.

Elude Senses is the power Crayne mentioned. 

Okay I posted a variation of this question earlier but the issue has come up again in my game.

Can a player become hidden outside of an encounter when no enemies are present?

Here is the scenario: Players know that a caravan is going to be coming along down the road in the next 5 minutes. They want to set up an ambush. So they all hide and then wait. When do they roll their stealth checks? When they hide, or when the enemies are approaching and within detection range?

RAW states that using stealth is an opposed check. That seems to mean that you can "hide" when there are no enemies present, but you really don't become "hidden" until you succeed on your stealth check versus an enemy that could detect you.

I feel like the players should have at least some benefit considering they have 5 minutes to prepare their hiding spot. The RAW seems to preclude any benefit. (I don't mind giving them some kind of skill check bonus, I am just wondering about RAW ways to handle this.)

Yes.

A stealth check is good against the entire universe, technically.  Most of them fail outright due to absurd penalties for distance, but the mechanic of the check still works fine. 

While a stealth check is an opposed check, it's against the passive perception of everyone else.  Whatever the caravan is doing, they have their passive perception, and you check it against the stealth result once they get in range to notice it.  It's the same process by which passive perception can detect the presence of a hidden trap in a dungeon - the trapmaker made a stealth check whenever he made it, and now that you're there, your perception goes up against that stealth result.

You are able to give out circumstance bonuses whenever you want.  Prep time for an ambush site is a very good reason to give a bonus ot the stealth check.

Hmmmm. So a player can state he is hiding from the caravan that is still a mile away and would succeed on every stealth check at this point due to absurd distance penalties o the caravan's perception. The player keeps making stealth checks (versus the caravan's passive perception) twice every round until he rolls a natural 20, thus giving him hidden status with the maximal possible stealth check he can possibly obtain. Chances are that by the time the caravan comes within detection range, the player is now considered hidden with the maximum stealth check possible because he will roll a 20 sometime in the 100* rolls he gets to make.

(*Each round the player can take 2 move actions, choosing not to move but then being able to reroll the stealth check if he wishes.)

The rules do state that once you have attained hidden status, you remain hidden (with the last stealth check roll you made) until you do something that makes you no longer hidden. So this seems like a situation where a player is allowed to Take 20 for his stealth check.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 3:17AM, peteincary wrote:

Hmmmm. So a player can state he is hiding from the caravan that is still a mile away and would succeed on every stealth check at this point due to absurd distance penalties o the caravan's perception. The player keeps making stealth checks (versus the caravan's passive perception) twice every round until he rolls a natural 20, thus giving him hidden status with the maximal possible stealth check he can possibly obtain. Chances are that by the time the caravan comes within detection range, the player is now considered hidden with the maximum stealth check possible because he will roll a 20 sometime in the 100* rolls he gets to make.

(*Each round the player can take 2 move actions, choosing not to move but then being able to reroll the stealth check if he wishes.)

The rules do state that once you have attained hidden status, you remain hidden (with the last stealth check roll you made) until you do something that makes you no longer hidden. So this seems like a situation where a player is allowed to Take 20 for his stealth check.

The rules for Hidden only apply during an encounter, to other creatures in the current encounter.  What you're talking about is Surprise, which is completely different.

Your party will prepare their ambush spot, and then, once there's something to ambush, roll Stealth to get their Surprise Round.  Probably with a bonus.

Some or all of them may want to start the Surprise Round while Hidden.  That's a second roll (although you might just let them use the same roll, and the same bonuses) that, again, waits for the creatures you're becoming Hidden from to exist.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 3:24AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

The rules for Hidden only apply during an encounter, to other creatures in the current encounter.  What you're talking about is Surprise, which is completely different.

Your party will prepare their ambush spot, and then, once there's something to ambush, roll Stealth to get their Surprise Round.  Probably with a bonus.

Some or all of them may want to start the Surprise Round while Hidden.  That's a second roll (although you might just let them use the same roll, and the same bonuses) that, again, waits for the creatures you're becoming Hidden from to exist.

Why do the rules for stealth only apply during an encounter? Other skills can be used outside of an encounter, so it can't be a general rule about skill use. There is nothing specifically stated in the stealth skill. In fact the Rules Compendium gives examples of using stealth outside of encounters for other things like hiding an object, so why not hiding yourself?

Feb 25, 2013 -- 3:42AM, peteincary wrote:

Feb 25, 2013 -- 3:24AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

The rules for Hidden only apply during an encounter, to other creatures in the current encounter.  What you're talking about is Surprise, which is completely different.

Your party will prepare their ambush spot, and then, once there's something to ambush, roll Stealth to get their Surprise Round.  Probably with a bonus.

Some or all of them may want to start the Surprise Round while Hidden.  That's a second roll (although you might just let them use the same roll, and the same bonuses) that, again, waits for the creatures you're becoming Hidden from to exist.

Why do the rules for stealth only apply during an encounter?

The rules for Hidden only apply during an encounter, because they say they do.  The state is not meaningful, outside an encounter.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 3:42AM, peteincary wrote:

 Other skills can be used outside of an encounter, so it can't be a general rule about skill use. There is nothing specifically stated in the stealth skill. In fact the Rules Compendium gives examples of using stealth outside of encounters for other things like hiding an object, so why not hiding yourself?

Stealth has many applications, becoming Hidden during an encounter is just one of them.  You can totally use Stealth outside of combat.  And then, when it's time to become Hidden, you need to be in an Encounter and you need to be rolling to become Hidden from something, in order for your roll to be meaningful.

Your question is like "well, why can't I roll Athletics a lot until I get a 20, then just use that number once I reach the wall I'm trying to climb?"  That's why you can't "just roll stealth a lot" and then use that number once you reach a creature you want to try being Hidden from.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 3:53AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

The rules for Hidden only apply during an encounter, because they say they do.  The state is not meaningful, outside an encounter.

I do not see anywhere in the rules for Hidden that say that Hidden only applies during an encounter.

Stealth has many applications, becoming Hidden during an encounter is just one of them.  You can totally use Stealth outside of combat.  And then, when it's time to become Hidden, you need to be in an Encounter and you need to be rolling to become Hidden from something, in order for your roll to be meaningful.

Your question is like "well, why can't I roll Athletics a lot until I get a 20, then just use that number once I reach the wall I'm trying to climb?"  That's why you can't "just roll stealth a lot" and then use that number once you reach a creature you want to try being Hidden from.

This would be a totally different situation because there is bad outcome that needs to be resolved with each failed Athletics check when climbing a wall. (You fall each fail and possibly take damage.) There is no bad outcome for a failed Stealth check if the enemy is so far away that the penalty to their perception check makes every Stealth check a guaranteed success, ie no fails to resolve.

The answer to that is 'if it doesn't matter, why are you rolling?' - at that point the PC is trying to roll stealth there's nothing to hide from and no penalty for failure, so no need to roll.

If they're trying to set an ambush, then that could range from a single group stealth roll (or possibly nature, dungeoneering or other appropriate substitute skills) to an entire skill challenge - but if you're trying to use stealth to set and ambush, you get one roll - if you roll low, then the ambush gets noticed at the point where it would trigger, and you don't get a surprise round, basically.

First let me say thank you all for being patient with me as I try to understand this issue. I have 2 players with high stealth skill who really want to use it often. As DM, I have made all of these points to the players, but there is still some disagreement with how the rules apply.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 5:03AM, thespaceinvader wrote:

The answer to that is 'if it doesn't matter, why are you rolling?' - at that point the PC is trying to roll stealth there's nothing to hide from and no penalty for failure, so no need to roll.

I am rolling because the players want to roll. They want to roll because they want to become Hidden while the enemy that they know about is still at a far enough range or under some other effect (such as sleeping) where they are having significant penalties to their perception skill check, and there are benefits to becoming Hidden, such as being able to remain Hidden without additional Stealth checks as long as they follow the Rules of Hidden Club.

If they're trying to set an ambush, then that could range from a single group stealth roll (or possibly nature, dungeoneering or other appropriate substitute skills) to an entire skill challenge - but if you're trying to use stealth to set and ambush, you get one roll - if you roll low, then the ambush gets noticed at the point where it would trigger, and you don't get a surprise round, basically.

I like the idea of using Nature or Dungeoneering skill checks to set up an ambush. I'll use that idea this next week.

But the rules don't prevent the player from trying to become Hidden far from the enemy where significant penalties occur to the perception checks, so why have to wait on Stealth check until the point that the enemy is about to be attacked or spied on or whatever?

Because that's the only time it matters.  Rolling solely to roll is pointless and wastes everybody's time.  If someone's doing something with no penalty for failure, and no benefit for success, like hiding from nobody in the middle of an empty wilderness, they just NARRATE it, they don't need to roll for it, because the roll does nothing.  You got a 40 stealth to hide from and enemy that hasn't crossed the horizon yet?  Woo.  Good for you.  You hide from ALL THE THINGS.  But, given that none of them knew where you were anyway, it did nothing.

You got a 10 stealth (or nature, or whatever) when setting your ambush, and the ambushee has 20 passive perception?  Sucks to be you, you left some tracks or broke a branch or something, and the enemy twigs to the fact that you're hiding in ambush, and you don't get your surprise round.  In this case, you're not making a single skill check once the enemy comes - you're using the skill(s) to represent how well you set this ambush, over the course of 30 seconds or 30 hours, however long it took you to set it up.

Once you're IN a (combat) encounter, the Hidden Club comes into play, and you can start to roll stealth to Hide.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 3:53AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

The rules for Hidden only apply during an encounter, because they say they do.  The state is not meaningful, outside an encounter.

Uh

Yes it is.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 6:17AM, thespaceinvader wrote:

Because that's the only time it matters.  Rolling solely to roll is pointless and wastes everybody's time.  If someone's doing something with no penalty for failure, and no benefit for success, like hiding from nobody in the middle of an empty wilderness, they just NARRATE it, they don't need to roll for it, because the roll does nothing.  You got a 40 stealth to hide from and enemy that hasn't crossed the horizon yet?  Woo.  Good for you.  You hide from ALL THE THINGS.  But, given that none of them knew where you were anyway, it did nothing.

You got a 10 stealth (or nature, or whatever) when setting your ambush, and the ambushee has 20 passive perception?  Sucks to be you, you left some tracks or broke a branch or something, and the enemy twigs to the fact that you're hiding in ambush, and you don't get your surprise round.  In this case, you're not making a single skill check once the enemy comes - you're using the skill(s) to represent how well you set this ambush, over the course of 30 seconds or 30 hours, however long it took you to set it up.

Once you're IN a (combat) encounter, the Hidden Club comes into play, and you can start to roll stealth to Hide.

I am not suggesting there are no enemies present at all. There is an enemy present. They are just under enough penalties to their perception check such that the player can make a Stealth attempt and not worry about failing if they do so. What prevents the player from trying to hide at this point?

Let me give you a made up scenario. (This was not what actually happened in the game last week that I was DMing, but if I can understand this, I will understand everything I am confused about.)

There is a monster with a Passive Perception of 15. It is sleeping so it gets -5 penalty to its Passive Perception. The player Ranger has been sneaking around and when he is 12 squares away from the monster, he sees the monster asleep on the ground. The Ranger has a Stealth skill of 10. He wants to hide right now. He does not want to attack. He just wants to hide.

1. Seems like this would warrant a Stealth check, correct? I see no problem with this. There is a monster and he can make an attempt to hide from it, correct? If he fails his Stealth check, the monster is going to become aware that the ranger is nearby and will wake up.

2. If he gets to make a Stealth check, say that he then rolls a 1, plus his Stealth skill of 10 for a total of 11, against a DC of 8. [Passive Perception 15 - 5 (for sleeping) - 2 (for being more than 10 squares away) = 8]. The ranger succeeds in becoming Hidden from the sleeping monster. Correct?

3. The Ranger decides he now wants to reroll his Stealth check. He takes a move action, moves zero squares, and rerolls his Stealth check. He now has to keep his new Stealth check roll in place of the previous one. Is there any reason this would not be allowed?

4. Assuming he was allowed to reroll his Stealth check, he continues doing so until he rolls a 20. As long as the monster isn't waking up any time soon, this will eventually happen. Which means the ranger is going be Hidden with a Stealth check of 30. As long as he does not break the rules of remaining Hidden, he continues to be hidden. Is this correct?

5. The ranger now moves slowly, 2 squares at a time, until he is 5 squares away from the monster and behind a tree which provides normal cover. He is still Hidden as no rule regarding remaining Hidden has been broken. Is this correct?

6. The monster decides it is time to wake up, so his Passive Perception when he wakes up is now at its normal full 15. He is no longer sleeping, and the ranger is no longer over 10 squares away. He does not notice the ranger at this time since his Passive Perception does not beat the ranger's last Stealth check of 30. Even if the monster becomes paranoid and decides to look around for anyone hiding around him, he will still fail his active perception check, and he will not become aware of the ranger who is hiding. Is this correct?

1: If the monster's modified passive perception cannot beat his stealth (which it can't, even if he rolls a 1) there's no point rolling, all that's doing is wasting time.  The monster doesn't notice him. (and, if you're in initiative, he cannot fail to get Hidden, as the monster's passive cannot beat his lowest possible stealth unless he moves quickly or makes noise).

2: See 1.  Hidden is pretty much meaningless in this instance, given that the monster is unconscious and doesn't know he's there.

3: This is pretty much irrelevant unless you're in initiative, which you're not, so don't bother.

4: See 3.

5: See 4.  Also, he doesn't need to maintain cover unless this particular monster sleeps with its eyes open (which, to be fair, quite a lot do).

6: If you DO take as read all of the above, yes.  However, so what?  All this gains your ranger is a surprise round, or being able to pass unseen, which you could just as well have handled by doing the following:

The Ranger makes a stalth check against the sleeping monster's passive perception.  In this case, he automatically succeeds.  he gets a surprise round as and when he's ready to attack the monster, unless something changes (the monster wakes up).  if that thing changes, and he's decided not to attack in the interim, then the monster may notice him with its new, awake Passive Perception.  If it does, no surprise round, you're in initiative if the monster is going to attack or vice versa.  If all he wants to do is pass or observe unseen, he can do that, unless he gets noticed per the above.

But fundamentally for that whole situation, he doesn't get a stealth check every round unless there's a REASON to have one every round (or indeed, rounds at all), i.e. initiative.  He gets a stealth check representing the whole of his sneaking up and ambushing a sleeping monster, whcih gets him a surprise round if he's successful, and he stops rolling unnecessary dice.

Stealth out of combat is happening in a skill challenge, and it's unhelpful and unnecessary to roll every move action, every round, forever, when you could just roll stealth once to represent the entire scene or sequence.  In much the same way, in combat, climbing a tall object might take 5 athletics checks, but out of combat, climbing an entire mountain could be boiled down to one or two, in the midst of a long travel-based SC.

1: If the monster's modified passive perception cannot beat his stealth (which it can't, even if he rolls a 1) there's no point rolling, all that's doing is wasting time.  The monster doesn't notice him. (and, if you're in initiative, he cannot fail to get Hidden, as the monster's passive cannot beat his lowest possible stealth unless he moves quickly or makes noise).

My players take exception to saying that there is no point in rolling. There is a point to rolling. First, it is part of this so-far noncombat encounter as to whether the monster becomes aware of the approaching PC; second, it sets the Stealth check skill of the player which is part of becoming Hidden; and third, it then sets up the player being able to try to be better Hidden which in game terms means rerolling their Stealth check.

2: See 1.  Hidden is pretty much meaningless in this instance, given that the monster is unconscious and doesn't know he's there.

Becoming Hidden is absolutely not meaningless in this instance. Becoming Hidden is harder than remaining Hidden. For example, you only need normal cover or concealment to remain Hidden, as opposed to superior cover or total concealment to become Hidden. In this instance described, the ranger was able to remain Hidden using normal cover, even when the monster woke up. In fact, being Hidden in this instance is entirely essential, otherwise the monster becomes aware of the ranger and will wake up!

3: This is pretty much irrelevant unless you're in initiative, which you're not, so don't bother.

Why it this irrelevant? The player knows his stealth check was low, so he wants to reroll because he has the time to do so. This translates in-character to the ranger realizing he was stepping on twigs (roll of 1) and could probably do a better job of not doing that (by rerolling his stealth check).

4: See 3.

5: See 4.  Also, he doesn't need to maintain cover unless this particular monster sleeps with its eyes open (which, to be fair, quite a lot do).

The ranger moves into cover so that if the monster wakes up (which he will) then the ranger will remain hidden. Maybe he wants to spy on the monster for a while after it wakes up.

6: If you DO take as read all of the above, yes.  However, so what?  All this gains your ranger is a surprise round, or being able to pass unseen, which you could just as well have handled by doing the following:

Because in this made-up scenario, if a player can do all of the above, then I understand how Stealth works. I don't mean to suggest a player would want to do this, but he could want to do this.

I appreciate all the time you are taking helping me to understand the Stealth ability in more detail. Like I said before, I am relatively new to DMing especially 4e, and I have 2 players with high Stealth that like to use the skill a lot.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 8:02AM, peteincary wrote:

My players take exception to saying that there is no point in rolling. There is a point to rolling. First, it is part of this so-far noncombat encounter as to whether the monster becomes aware of the approaching PC; second, it sets the Stealth check skill of the player which is part of becoming Hidden; and third, it then sets up the player being able to try to be better Hidden which in game terms means rerolling their Stealth check.

You shouldn't let them do this.  The number on the d20 is metagame knowledge, and they should not be able to use it to determine whether they should try again.  From the perspective of the characters, they tried their best, and without a reference of someone actually opposing their check they have no way of knowing how good their check was.  Just trying again until they roll a natural 20 isn't a good thing to do in this circumstance.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 8:12AM, Mand12 wrote:

Feb 25, 2013 -- 8:02AM, peteincary wrote:

My players take exception to saying that there is no point in rolling. There is a point to rolling. First, it is part of this so-far noncombat encounter as to whether the monster becomes aware of the approaching PC; second, it sets the Stealth check skill of the player which is part of becoming Hidden; and third, it then sets up the player being able to try to be better Hidden which in game terms means rerolling their Stealth check.

You shouldn't let them do this.  The number on the d20 is metagame knowledge, and they should not be able to use it to determine whether they should try again.  From the perspective of the characters, they tried their best, and without a reference of someone actually opposing their check they have no way of knowing how good their check was.  Just trying again until they roll a natural 20 isn't a good thing to do in this circumstance.

As I noted above, the players argue that knowing their roll is like saying that their character has a feel for how good or bad he is doing the skill. Examples: I try to climb a slippery wall with a DC of 30, and my Atheletics skill is 5. I roll a 20. My character realizes that I put forth my best effort and still came nowhere close to succeeding. Or I am trying to hide, I roll a 1 on my stealth check, so my character realizes that stepping on twigs makes for a very bad chance at hiding, and now wants to do a better job hiding by avoiding the twigs. Or I am trying to move silently, I roll a 10 on my stealth check, and my friends with high Perception skill says, hey dude! I can still hear you walking! Try to be quieter!

But I do understand your point about metagaming. I think that might be part of the problem that I need to stop. I DM for a group of high school aged kids, and a few of them look for every advantage and exploit they can find in the rulebooks. That is how they enjoy the game.

Eh, if they enjoy it, they enjoy it.  But it might do them some good to learn that there are consequences.  Repeating the roll just so you can get a better number isn't actually playing the game.  You might as well just let them pick their favorite number.

Yes, they should have some concept about how well they did, and how close they are to success.  But to then take the next step of fixing all bad rolls by extra attempts, that's where you as the DM step in.  Bad rolls are part of the game, and they need to be dealt with, not just sidestepped.

2 more questions about Stealth.

1. If a creature is sleeping, it is unconscious, correct? Do you still have to meet the requirement for staying out of Line of Sight to remain hidden from a creature that is sleeping. Technically, the state Blinded includes "You can't see any target" so you are good there, but unconscious does not have this effect. This would imply that if you tried to hide in front of a sleeping creature in order to duck under a table providing only normal cover with the intent to remain hidden there, you fail because it still had LoS. Seems silly. I have ruled in my games that sleeping creatures (whether normal or magic sleep) have closed eyes and can't see you, but of course can still detect you with Passive Perception -5 for sleeping.

2. In order to successfully become Hidden, you must make an opposed check versus the enemy's Passive Perception. An opposed check is defined as getting that number or higher. If you tie the result, does that mean you become Hidden? If so, then how do you handle its ongoing Passive Perception checks to seeing you later, since he now ties your Stealth check that you recorded? I guess you have to actually beat the enemy's Passive Perception, not just tie it, right?   

Most creatures that are sleeping are unconscious, but not all.  Unconscious has "you are not aware of your surroundings" - so you fail all perception checks outright.  The exception is in fact sleeping, and is covered in the Unconscious condition:

A creature that has fallen asleep naturally—as opposed to being knocked unconscious by a power or other effect—is unconscious but not totally deprived of awareness; it can use its passive Perception to hear things, but with a -5 penalty.

But no, they can't see anything - you are considered to have total concealment, and can thus make Stealth checks to hide.

If perception equals your stealth check, the thing detects you.

to add on to what Mand is explaining.  Some creatures don't actually sleep and instead meditate or don't require sleep at all.  Those states also sometimes specify that the creature remains aware of their surroundings.  Some of those creatures are playable races and can be PC's, so it's important to note that sort of stuff as a DM.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 6:32AM, Mand12 wrote:

Feb 25, 2013 -- 3:53AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

The rules for Hidden only apply during an encounter, because they say they do.  The state is not meaningful, outside an encounter.

Uh

Yes it is.

It really isn't.  I can't think of EVEN ONE situation where "enemies in this Encounter must guess your square" is relevant outside an Encounter.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that's just tautological.

Relevant outside COMBAT, yes, sure, no problem, but "encounter" and "combat encounter" are not the same thing. 

This would be a totally different situation because there is bad outcome that needs to be resolved with each failed Athletics check when climbing a wall. (You fall each fail and possibly take damage.) There is no bad outcome for a failed Stealth check if the enemy is so far away that the penalty to their perception check makes every Stealth check a guaranteed success, ie no fails to resolve.

Being Hidden from nobody because there's nobody to be Hidden from, and trying to roll Stealth over and over until you get a number that you'd like to apply to the next person you want to hide from?  Yeah, no.  And that's EXACTLY the same as rolling Athletics or a Hit Roll over and over and then trying to keep the number and apply it against the next person you meet:  You're doing the classic Try Again Until It Works retest against *nothing*, then trying to say that your roll against the nothing is the roll you get to use against the something.

The bad outcome of a failed Stealth check is that the creature finds you.  Which means that, since you can only become Hidden from a creature by rolling against that creature's passive perception, in an Encounter, you have to roll against that creature, as part of the encounter.

Then how, pray tell, do you explain using Stealth checks out of combat, at all?  Nothing in the Stealth check rules have anything to do with anything other than becoming Hidden, and then the Rules of Hidden Club.

Feb 25, 2013 -- 5:45PM, Mand12 wrote:

Then how, pray tell, do you explain using Stealth checks out of combat, at all?  Nothing in the Stealth check rules have anything to do with anything other than becoming Hidden, and then the Rules of Hidden Club.

Apart from the examples right there in the text of how to use Stealth outside an encounter, like "Hide an object in a room, Craft a hidden compartment or sheath, Embed a secret message in a letter"?

All the rest of the rules involve using Stealth in an Encounter, yes, you're correct.  That's why I pointed out that the rules only have meaning during an Encounter, and also that while rolling an attack over and over on a monster that doesn't exist is fine, you still have to roll against it for real once it shows up.

(But, again, "Encounter" does not mean "Combat Encounter".)

You might note I said out of combat, not out of encounter.  An encounter that involves combat is, in fact, a combat encounter.  You'll also note that I, too, said that rolling a stealth check over and over is wrong.  The difference is that rolling a check, once, is perfectly acceptable and in fact a good idea.  How else to you explain the other side, when it's the PCs encountering traps?  Their perception is being checked against a DC that the DM just made up, practically, but mechanically it's being checked against a Stealth check result from some actor previous to the party showing up.  And it could be millenia before the party shows up.  Yet you would have me believe that a stealth check has to be rolled when the party arrives, to have something to check against the PCs' perception?  I don't think so.

I see LordOfWeasels' argument as far as rules go; this strikes me as DM fiat territory.


That said, maybe there's an interesting way to handle ambush tactics. For example, if your players want to start an encounter with the hidden trait, have them consider how to accomplish this. You need Total Concealment for hidden, and while that's easy against an enemy who is miles away, it doesn't -stay- easy. They have to surrender some degree of combat readiness to create a situation where they will have Total Concealment as their quarry approaches, even if it just means surrendering LOS and relying on their passive perception to notice when the quarry arrives (hiding behind the giant rock or something). Obviously, the other consideration is being hidden on top of maintaining their Total Concealment, and they want their "Take 20".


But probability says that rolling a 1 is about as likely as rolling a 20, and in this situation the PCs must rely on their environment in the Stealth Check. I'd recommend making them roll for their Stealth when they prepare the ambush; they get as many rerolls as they're willing to / can make before the encounter starts, but record their lowest result. They disturb the environment as they prepare their ambush and move around in it, so their lowest Stealth roll becomes the DC for their quarry to notice that the environment has travelers passing through or in it. If their result is lower than the Passive Perception for the quarry, the quarry knows to make Perception Checks & possibly its own Stealth Checks. If they want to make it a stealth game, make it interesting and challenge them where their focus is. Either they'll love it, or it'll turn out that they just want to start every encounter with combat advantage and/or relative immunity to attacks, which is just kind of silly.

The trick with setting up any ambush is that its only as good as the least stealthy party member (just like you don't have to outrun the dragon, you only have to outrun the dwarf or halfling).  It doesn't really matter if your thief rolls a 42 if the Paladin in plate armor rolls a 12.


I would run the setup of an ambush as a Skill Challenge.  The complexity level would vary based on what you're trying to surprise and where.   If its a single creature with no special detection abilities (ex: a lone merchant in a dark alleyway with no one else around) it would be complexity 1. If it's a caravan with trained guards (or an army) including darkvision and flying scouts on an open road in a barren wasteland, and your actual target is at the rear end of the caravan, it's complexity 5.
 
  Relevant skills would be:
1) Stealth (obviously). This would be the main skill
2) Nature, Dungeoneering or Streetwise, based on location of the encounter.  I would limit the number of these checks, or after the 1st one or two, it might become advantage granting only.
3) Perception and possibly Insight could give advantages - spotting better hiding locations, etc.
4) Bluff or Thievery are possibilities, especially to setup another distraction, or if the ambush relies on a character faking they are injured in the road, etc.  Or it could represent the party having a hidden signal to trigger the attack without alerting the enemy.
5) Acrobatics and Athletics could  play a part as well with a limited number of uses and represent moving something large into position to give cover (and not look obvious), or a character getting into a hidden position up in a tree, etc. 
6) Endurance may also come into play.  Sitting in ambush position may be easy for a character trained in stealth and in light armor.  Its more difficult for the paladin in plate or cleric in scale armor to sit still quietly for those 5 minutes you're waiting.
7) If the nature of the approaching targets is known, I would maybe grant an advantage from a monster knowledge check of the appropriate skill.

Challenge results:
On total success, I would give the full party a surprise round, and starting as hidden, or at least a very large bonus (say +20) on the opposed stealth check as the enemy approaches.

On failure, the enemy would recognize there is an ambush or something wrong as they approach the area and would be alert, but the party would still get stealth checks without a bonus (I don't think a penalty would be necessary).  If there's time, I may allow the party to recognize they totally screwed up their ambush attempt ahead of time, but they wouldn't be able to retry the challenge near the same location, and if they move further down the road, a reattempt may have penalties or be more difficult as the enemy would be alerted.

If the result is somewhere in between (challenge succeeded with some failures), grant a moderate bonus to stealth checks to the party.  Considering lines of sight based on the enemy and the party members, this might result in a surprise round or not, depending on how good the enemy's perception is.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />  Also consider that depending on terrain some characters may need to take positions that are not great for a surprise round in order to be hidden, such as being prone, up in a tree, in difficult terrain (heavy brush) etc, so some characters may choose not to act in the surprise round if they haven't been spotted.

Hey question: the "Blur" Wizard Utility (Level 10, PHB1) states : "and enemies five or more squares away from you cannot see you" i'm taking it for my swordmage through a theme

what is my condition for those "more than 5 square away monsters" relative to those mentioned in the first posts? is it concealment, hidden, or has this power been errataed in a way that makes it not matter?

edit: or actually, does it just interrupt line of sight? that might be it

I can tell you how I am handling abmush/stealth rules now, as I discussed with the players involved in my campaign. It follows all the rules and works well IMO.

Players can hide all they want if there is no chance of enemy detection. No dice rolls. You want to hide, fine, you are now hidden. (This allows players to set up an ambush in an area and then only have to maintain normal cover or normal concealment, because they are just having to remain hidden from that point on.)

The first dice roll occurs when an enemy has its first chance at detecting any player. For example, a caravan first comes down the road. I consider this the start of the encounter, although combat has not yet started so a noncombat enounter. The caravan is most likely over 10 squares away, so the caravan folks have a -2 to their perception at this point. The players roll their stealth check. If any of the players fail, they obviously are detected and probably combat starts with no surprise round. If they instead all succeed at their stealth checks, any of them can reroll their stealth check if they choose to, following the rule of rolling another stealth check after a "move 0" action. They have to keep their new roll and could possibly be detected if they roll low and as the caravan draws nearer. And I calculate how much closer the caravan is each "round" although official rounds have not really started yet since we are not in combat. This limits how many rerolls they are going to get before the risk becomes too great. They are probably only going to get 1-2 lower risk rerolls before the caravan no longer has the -2 perception check due to being over 10 squares away.

Does this sound reasonable? Trying to incorporate the information you all are providing for a final ruling for my players. I personally don't like the skill challenge concept for something that really should just be covered under the stealth skill.

Feb 27, 2013 -- 11:19AM, The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Hey question: the "Blur" Wizard Utility (Level 10, PHB1) states : "and enemies five or more squares away from you cannot see you" i'm taking it for my swordmage through a theme

what is my condition for those "more than 5 square away monsters" relative to those mentioned in the first posts? is it concealment, hidden, or has this power been errataed in a way that makes it not matter?

edit: or actually, does it just interrupt line of sight? that might be it

Cannot see you means that you have total concealment from them.  No more, no less.

Feb 27, 2013 -- 11:19AM, The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Hey question: the "Blur" Wizard Utility (Level 10, PHB1) states : "and enemies five or more squares away from you cannot see you" i'm taking it for my swordmage through a theme

what is my condition for those "more than 5 square away monsters" relative to those mentioned in the first posts? is it concealment, hidden, or has this power been errataed in a way that makes it not matter?

edit: or actually, does it just interrupt line of sight? that might be it

Blur was updated so that you are now Invisible to any enemy 5 or more squares away from you.

Invisible = "cannot see you", but now they're using the actual in game term for it. So you have total concealment but are not hidden unless you make a stealth check.

understood, still a lovely penalty to their ability to hit from my 10 squares away :p

thanks guys!

Feb 27, 2013 -- 11:19AM, peteincary wrote:

I can tell you how I am handling abmush/stealth rules now, as I discussed with the players involved in my campaign. It follows all the rules and works well IMO.

......

Does this sound reasonable? Trying to incorporate the information you all are providing for a final ruling for my players. I personally don't like the skill challenge concept for something that really should just be covered under the stealth skill.

That seems reasonable to me.  The skill challenge idea I would only apply to certain scenarios, otherwise the party would start doing it as often as possible to try to get extra XP, and as pointed it it could bog the game down (a non-munchkin party would probably take that into account).  An alternative would be to reward less or 0 XP for that type of challenge because its not a forced challenge.
  The main reason I suggest the skill challenge idea is that it allows the stealth trained members of the party to help hide the non-stealthy members of the party, thereby increasing the chances of a successful ambush, well still having the chance of a screw up, such as the Paladin being positioned such that the sun reflects directly off his shield and onto the approaching enemies, making their presence clear.

Question about when you can make a stealth check: 

1) If I move using a minor action, such as kobold being able to shift as a minor action, does that count as allowing me to be able to roll a stealth check at the end of that action?

2) Is using a move action to "move 0" allowed? Or does I actually have to move somewhere for it to count? I am already in a square that has superior cover and/or total concealment.    

1: Yes.  Though, kobolds as of the Dungeon Survival Handbook no longer have at-will shift as a minor action.

2: Yes.  As is standing up.

You roll stealth at the end of a move action or any action in which you move.  It does just what it says - use a move action for anything (Knight's Move, stand up, etc), you can roll Stealth if you meet the conditions.  Use an action in which you move (Charge, Tumbling Strike, an immediate action, etc etc), you can roll stealth if you meet the conditions.

Mar 2, 2013 -- 2:34PM, thespaceinvader wrote:

1: Yes.  Though, kobolds as of the Dungeon Survival Handbook no longer have at-will shift as a minor action.

2: Yes.  As is standing up.

Ah cool thanks I totally missed that! Shifty maneuver is now an encounter power thanks!!!! 

Firstly, this thread is awesome. You guys rock!
(I did read it all ^^)

Just a few questions..

1. Is this statement fair and true:
Rolling to hide at the end of an action represents using the movement of the action to hide, and the stealth part only taking effect at the end of the action.

___
2. Most here probably know about the whole "Prone > Teleport 1sq above where you want to move to > Land standing" thing. What if we apply this to hiding?

Say an invisible creature uses a move action to teleport into the air, and rolls to hide at the end of the teleport.
Would they become hidden at the conclusion of the action, and then fall after the action is complete? Or would they fall first, and become hidden on the ground?
(They should probably have to finish teleporting to be able to fall, which would be when the action is complete? You could also argue things like inertia if you really wanted to)

Either way, you could get around the order of events by teleporting to a climbable surface or flying, etc, the point is that they lost you when you were in the air, but you were moved to the ground via gravity.

Of course, this would only help if you could make your opponent think you were still up in the air (the climbing and flying stuff helps here), but is this viable (rules-wise, not cheese-wise)?

I do realise that just flying and hiding (then falling) would equate to more or less the same thing, but the teleport-hiding thing is for order-of-events as well.

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3. To the guys in the early stages of the thread, working on the language proofs for the rule wording, did you come to any conclusions?


Thanks all! (especially LoW)

1: Yes, you roll at the end of the action.  You have to move WHILST ALREADY hidden in order for things to have to guess where you are (or, at least, in order for things to have a chance of failing to guess where you are correctly).

2: Expect table variation.  RAW, I think you'd fall after the action i.e. after making the stealth check) so if, say, monsters didn't know you could fly, you might be able to convince them you fell - but you've have to have total concealment whilst in the air...

3: wouldn't know.

Can I make a stealth check while grabbing someone? For example, I am in totally dark room with total concealment. I use a standard action to grab someone and succeed. I then use a move action (either move zero or maybe shift to another adjacent square) and then roll a stealth check. Am I now stealthed from those who have lower passive perceptions? Including the person I am grabbing?

RAW, it seems that I am indeed now hidden from everyone including the person I am grabbing.

And then, next turn, does sustaining a grab cause me to break stealth? It is a sustain minor, not an attack, so it would appear that this does not break the Rules of Hidden Club and I therefore remain hidden.

Apr 17, 2013 -- 7:41PM, peteincary wrote:

Can I make a stealth check while grabbing someone? For example, I am in totally dark room with total concealment. I use a standard action to grab someone and succeed. I then use a move action (either move zero or maybe shift to another adjacent square) and then roll a stealth check. Am I now stealthed from those who have lower passive perceptions? Including the person I am grabbing?

RAW, it seems that I am indeed now hidden from everyone including the person I am grabbing.

And then, next turn, does sustaining a grab cause me to break stealth? It is a sustain minor, not an attack, so it would appear that this does not break the Rules of Hidden Club and I therefore remain hidden.

Aside from your GM ruling that "having someone grabbed" counts as revealing yourself?  Yes.  And that looks correct.  But guessing what square you're in is relatively easy when you have someone Grabbed, most of the time.

Not really... I mean it has to be an adjacent square (unless you have natural reach). But that leaves 8 options normally, more if you can fly.

Regarding remaining hidden, I know that if you make an attack, you are no longer hidden. "Don’t Attack: If the creature makes an attack, it doesn’t remain hidden." What about using a Sustain Minor effect (once already hidden) that causes automatic damage but does not use the game term "attack" in the description? Does that count as an attack?

The grab was made with a garrote attack, which on a hit did damage, but then also allowed as a Sustain Minor to cause damage next round as well. Does using the Sustain Minor the next round count as an attack that would break stealth?

The attack ability basically read like this, with the sustain part indented:

Attack: DEX vs reflex

Hit: 10 damage and target is grabbed.

      Sustain Standard: Target remains grabbed and takes 10 damage.

  

A Sustain line would make you not remain hidden if it let you make an attack roll or use an attack power with a target line which is what constitue making an attack. 

The exemple provided above contain none of these being static damage and so you'd stay hidden.

Apr 18, 2013 -- 5:46AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

A Sustain line would make you not remain hidden if it let you make an attack roll or use an attack power with a target line which is what constitue making an attack. 

The exemple provided above contain none of these being static damage and so you'd stay hidden.

Again assuming that your GM rules that garrotting someone is silent and unobstrusive.  However, if he agrees with that, you aren't breaking any of the other rules.

This is much like the guy a few pages back that argued that flashes of lightning and peals of thunder were unobtrusive and silent and didn't involve making any noise or drawing any attention to himself:  "Expect table variation", although the garroting at least has a chance of being ruled legal.

 
If I am Hidden, then use an attack power like Deft Strike that allows me to move and then attack do I get combat advantage versus the target due to me being hidden while attacking like invisibility does?

Yes  since you retains the benefits of being hidden, such as combat advantage, until the action that cause you to not remain hidden is resolved. 

Not Remaining Hidden: If the creature takes an action that causes it not to remain hidden, the creature retains the benefits of being hidden, such as combat advantage, until the action is resolved. The creature can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.

A few issues came up on my last dnd session regarding stealth. I'm using a rogue / warlock combination for the shadow walk feature that grants concealment when moving more then 3 squares, and using cunning sneak that allows me to become hidden with only concealment, not total concealment. Now the question is, since I rolled stealth, I am actually hidden and there for I have invisibility and total concealment for -5 to hit me?

Another thing is regarding monsters, they can try to spot me with a minor action perception roll. So lets say one of them manages to beat me with a good perception roll against my stealth roll, the rules say when searching for a hidden creature, that creature looses hidden when found. Does that mean I still have invisibility and total concealment?

The flowchart is like this, concealment from shadow walk into hidden, a creature spots me, what happens when he attacks me, does he have a -5 penalty or a -2 penalty since I didn't actually have total concealment when I became hidden, only partial from shadow walk.

May 11, 2013 -- 4:49AM, Vujin wrote:

A few issues came up on my last dnd session regarding stealth. I'm using a rogue / warlock combination for the shadow walk feature that grants concealment when moving more then 3 squares, and using cunning sneak that allows me to become hidden with only concealment, not total concealment. Now the question is, since I rolled stealth, I am actually hidden and there for I have invisibility and total concealment for -5 to hit me?

Yes.

Another thing is regarding monsters, they can try to spot me with a minor action perception roll. So lets say one of them manages to beat me with a good perception roll against my stealth roll, the rules say when searching for a hidden creature, that creature looses hidden when found. Does that mean I still have invisibility and total concealment?

Not against that enemy.  You'll still have concealment from Shadow Walk, and creatures that haven't found you will still treat you as invisible/totally concealed.

The flowchart is like this, concealment from shadow walk into hidden, a creature spots me, what happens when he attacks me, does he have a -5 penalty or a -2 penalty since I didn't actually have total concealment when I became hidden, only partial from shadow walk.

-2

May 11, 2013 -- 4:49AM, Vujin wrote:

A few issues came up on my last dnd session regarding stealth. I'm using a rogue / warlock combination for the shadow walk feature that grants concealment when moving more then 3 squares, and using cunning sneak that allows me to become hidden with only concealment, not total concealment.

NB, that combination is quite hard to get always-on and legally.  How are you doing it?

(I mean, it's POSSIBLE.  But very hard and very expensive.)

May 11, 2013 -- 4:49AM, Vujin wrote:

 Now the question is, since I rolled stealth, I am actually hidden and there for I have invisibility and total concealment for -5 to hit me?

That's correct.  Shadow Walk gives you Concealment.  Cunning Sneak lets you become Hidden with just Concealment.  Hidden causes Total Concealment - so you're upgrading Concealment to Total Concealment.

May 11, 2013 -- 4:49AM, Vujin wrote:

Another thing is regarding monsters, they can try to spot me with a minor action perception roll. So lets say one of them manages to beat me with a good perception roll against my stealth roll, the rules say when searching for a hidden creature, that creature looses hidden when found. Does that mean I still have invisibility and total concealment?

No, because those came from Hidden.  That monster found you - you are not Hidden from that monster, so you do not have Total Concealment Because Hidden from that monster.

May 11, 2013 -- 4:49AM, Vujin wrote:

The flowchart is like this, concealment from shadow walk into hidden, a creature spots me, what happens when he attacks me, does he have a -5 penalty or a -2 penalty since I didn't actually have total concealment when I became hidden, only partial from shadow walk.

You were invisible ONLY because you were Hidden.  When you stopped being Hidden, you also stopped being invisible to that monster.  So the only penalty he's got is the -2 from Concealment.

(However, don't worry about this too much.  Rolling perception to find a Hidden creature is a sucker's game, generally only useful as a Hail Mary "well, I had nothing else to do with that minor action" thing, and will very rarely work.  Worry more about monsters walking into you for the guaranteed Hidden-breakage, or just switching to Burst and Blast attacks that ignore *all* concealment entirely.)

May 11, 2013 -- 7:49AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

May 11, 2013 -- 4:49AM, Vujin wrote:

A few issues came up on my last dnd session regarding stealth. I'm using a rogue / warlock combination for the shadow walk feature that grants concealment when moving more then 3 squares, and using cunning sneak that allows me to become hidden with only concealment, not total concealment.

NB, that combination is quite hard to get always-on and legally.  How are you doing it?

(I mean, it's POSSIBLE.  But very hard and very expensive.)

Creating a hybrid rogue / warlock and training the shadow innitiate and cursed shadow feats.

Thanks for the quick answers, cleared all the questions I had.

May 11, 2013 -- 9:39AM, Vujin wrote:

May 11, 2013 -- 7:49AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

NB, that combination is quite hard to get always-on and legally.  How are you doing it?

(I mean, it's POSSIBLE.  But very hard and very expensive.)

Creating a hybrid rogue / warlock and training the shadow innitiate and cursed shadow feats.

Thanks for the quick answers, cleared all the questions I had.

And Hybrid Talent:  Cunning Sneak.  Huh.  Neat, I hadn't seen that combo before.