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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A The Rules Of Hidden Club: Targeting things you...
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Sticky: The Rules Of Hidden Club: Targeting things you can't see in D&D.
1 year ago  ::  Mar 19, 2012 - 3:22PM #1231
LordOfWeasels
Date Joined: Apr 6, 2009
Posts: 7,822

Mar 19, 2012 -- 3:15PM, Stefann wrote:

Let's say you are in stealth. Your move comes and you want to walk up to someone 6 squares away, and attack. Do you need to roll the dice for the 3rd and 5th square of movement, suffering the -5 penalty, and be successful to get combat advantage?




You only roll once, at the end of your move.

You also only roll to stay Hidden if you have at least Cover or Concealment.  If you walk right up to the guy and you don't have Cover or Concealment during the *entire* move, you lose Hidden at the end of the move.

Remember, once you've broken a rule, you only keep Hidden until the end of your current ACTION.  "Walk" is an action, and once it's over, you're not Hidden any more if you broke any of the rules during your walk.

If you get to move and attack as a single action - Charge, Deft Strike, Attacks On The Run, something like that - then even if you break the rules and step out into the open, you're still Hidden (no roll required) when you make the attack.

Mar 19, 2012 -- 3:15PM, Stefann wrote:

 And if someone is rolling for perception checks it's their perception + their roll, vs the stealth roll and stealth bonus right?




It's against the number you rolled on Stealth to become Hidden, yes.  Whatever your D20 was, + your Stealth skill.

Confused about Stealth?  Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?"  You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.

Damage types and resistances:  A working house rule.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 19, 2012 - 3:31PM #1232
Stefann
Date Joined: Mar 11, 2012
Posts: 101
Why no roll required? Auto hit? Do you roll for dmg?
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 19, 2012 - 3:34PM #1233
LordOfWeasels
Date Joined: Apr 6, 2009
Posts: 7,822

Mar 19, 2012 -- 3:31PM, Stefann wrote:

Why no roll required? Auto hit? Do you roll for dmg?




You don't need to roll STEALTH again because you're not trying to STAY HIDDEN.

Hence why I said "you're still Hidden (no roll required)"

Confused about Stealth?  Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?"  You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.

Damage types and resistances:  A working house rule.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 19, 2012 - 7:16PM #1234
Stefann
Date Joined: Mar 11, 2012
Posts: 101
Ok. So essentially you can't melee attack unless the creature is right beside you and you do a trigger attack for when it walks beside you, or you do one of the following suggestions to gain combat advantage. Can you do a ranged attack while in stealth and get combat advantage from stealth?
If you are in stealth, and attack, my understanding is you can't go back into stealth for that turn, right?
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 19, 2012 - 7:57PM #1235
LordOfWeasels
Date Joined: Apr 6, 2009
Posts: 7,822

Mar 19, 2012 -- 7:16PM, Stefann wrote:

Ok. So essentially you can't melee attack unless the creature is right beside you and you do a trigger attack for when it walks beside you, or you do one of the following suggestions to gain combat advantage. Can you do a ranged attack while in stealth and get combat advantage from stealth?




Combat Advantage is Combat Advantage, no matter what kind of attack you're using.  Read the rules on Stealth to find out what being Hidden is, and the rules on Combat Advantage to find out what grants it.

Mar 19, 2012 -- 7:16PM, Stefann wrote:

If you are in stealth, and attack, my understanding is you can't go back into stealth for that turn, right?




Why don't you read the original post in this thread, maybe read the book, *then* ask questions?

Confused about Stealth?  Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?"  You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.

Damage types and resistances:  A working house rule.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 19, 2012 - 9:15PM #1236
Stefann
Date Joined: Mar 11, 2012
Posts: 101
I've read heroes of the fallen lands, heroes of the forgotten kingdoms, and the dungeon master's kit...
I also read the original post. This all in the span of about 4 days.
If my questions bother you so much, please do not respond to them. I crammed about 500 pages of information in that period of time, and rules will overlap, and I will forget certain things, and with a rule like stealth having so many freaking variables I might not fully grasp. Especially when it's discussed on an internet forum, rather than someone being physically infront of me showing exceptions and what not in person.
Seriously. First time playing D&D was last sunday. I DM'd. It wasn't easy. You don't have to answer.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 6:21AM #1237
mellored
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008
Posts: 19,521

Mar 19, 2012 -- 7:16PM, Stefann wrote:

Ok. So essentially you can't melee attack unless the creature is right beside you and you do a trigger attack for when it walks beside you, or you do one of the following suggestions to gain combat advantage. Can you do a ranged attack while in stealth and get combat advantage from stealth? If you are in stealth, and attack, my understanding is you can't go back into stealth for that turn, right?


Stealth only adds combat advantage to attacks.  Doesn't matter what kind of attack, if they don't know where you are, you get CA.  

Combat Advantage is achiveable plenty of other ways (such as flanking, or feats).  It's not a powerful offensive option.

Stealth in melee is much harder then stealth at ranged, simply because it's easy to gain concealment or cover at ranged.  The move+attack powers are quite useful for attacking while stealthed.  But if your fighting in fog, you could (with a good roll) walk right up to someone without them noticing.

You cannot hide if you unhid that action.  You could deft strike out, attack someone (loose hidden), then use your move action to run back behind a wall.

guides Show
my builds Show

F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 21, 2012 - 3:37AM #1238
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,667

Mar 20, 2012 -- 6:21AM, mellored wrote:

Mar 19, 2012 -- 7:16PM, Stefann wrote:

Ok. So essentially you can't melee attack unless the creature is right beside you and you do a trigger attack for when it walks beside you, or you do one of the following suggestions to gain combat advantage. Can you do a ranged attack while in stealth and get combat advantage from stealth? If you are in stealth, and attack, my understanding is you can't go back into stealth for that turn, right?


Stealth only adds combat advantage to attacks.  Doesn't matter what kind of attack, if they don't know where you are, you get CA.  

Combat Advantage is achiveable plenty of other ways (such as flanking, or feats).  It's not a powerful offensive option.

Stealth in melee is much harder then stealth at ranged, simply because it's easy to gain concealment or cover at ranged.  The move+attack powers are quite useful for attacking while stealthed.  But if your fighting in fog, you could (with a good roll) walk right up to someone without them noticing.

You cannot hide if you unhid that action.  You could deft strike out, attack someone (loose hidden), then use your move action to run back behind a wall.




Worth noting that with feat, item, PP choices you can make Hidden add significantly more than just CA.

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 21, 2012 - 1:55PM #1239
cerebreturns
Date Joined: Jun 26, 2008
Posts: 10
With Shadow Strike, the rogue power, it says you remain hidden. Does this mean to the end of your turn? Does this ignore all other requirements of hidden? A friend of mine is saying if he uses Shadow Strike he no longer needs to have concealment or cover to stay hidden, is that true?

One of the main ways to lose hidden is if you are out in the open with no cover/concealment...does shadow strike get around this?
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 21, 2012 - 2:01PM #1240
LordOfWeasels
Date Joined: Apr 6, 2009
Posts: 7,822

Mar 21, 2012 -- 1:55PM, cerebreturns wrote:

With Shadow Strike, the rogue power, it says you remain hidden. Does this mean to the end of your turn? Does this ignore all other requirements of hidden? A friend of mine is saying if he uses Shadow Strike he no longer needs to have concealment or cover to stay hidden, is that true?




No.  He's wrong.

Shadow Strike says that you can remain Hidden after the attack, when normally you would have lost Hidden because you attacked.

Once the attack is done, so is your "remain Hidden", and all the normal rules apply again.

It's still a huge advantage - the ability to remain Hidden while still attacking is boss.

Mar 21, 2012 -- 1:55PM, cerebreturns wrote:

One of the main ways to lose hidden is if you are out in the open with no cover/concealment...does shadow strike get around this?




Nope.  For that, you want Chameleon or Shadow Stride, depending on if it's your turn or not.  Both of those, notably, have restrictions.

Confused about Stealth?  Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?"  You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.

Damage types and resistances:  A working house rule.
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