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3 years ago ::
Jul 25, 2010 - 9:11PM
#21
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But with the new builds, especially the Knight, I can't be sure, because the underlying frame is different. And they've clearly stated these are the designs moving forward. The PHB classes are old designs. Will the old designs get support?
Re: The bolded part. No. No, they haven't.
Uh, yes they did...
We’ve charted a new direction in class design with the Essentials products. It’s a direction we intend to use from here on out.
and
They form the foundation of the game moving forward and are designed to be the perfect way for new people to get into the game
...unless you're reading that completely differently than I.
Re: The rest. Yes, it's going to split development on each class further, but no more so than a new build would for many classes. Not all classes/builds, of course, but there are classes whose builds are so very different... well, a new Beastmaster Ranger power does nothing for anybody else, ever. A weapon-based Ranger powery may or may not work for both melee and ranged builds. It's always been a mixed bag.
A new Warpriest or Mage build is going to have powers that can be pillaged. A new Knight build... well, I've said this before in two other threads, but the Knight is a build like the Warpriest domains or a Mage school. It isn't modular to begin with. That's fact, and from that fact, I speculate we're not going to see much further support for it at all. It's like an Apple product: closed box, not meant to be modded.
Eh, fair enough. I certainly hope the existence of new mechanics doesn't impinge on the development of existing mechanics. Beastmaster didn't stop new Two-Blade powers. I just can't get past how different these sub-classes are. A Beastmaster had the same framework as Archers. A knight does not have the same framework as a any other Fighter.
Although, as an aside, there is something else that's bothering me. Currently, it goes Class-->Build. Fighter-->Tempest. Rogue-->Artful Dodger. But with the new cleric, Warpriest is a build of a cleric, and each domain is a build of the Warpriest. Cleric-->Warpriest-->Storm Warpriest.
Are these new builds even "builds" or are they new classes that are tagged as existing classes so they don't have to publish 500 feats? Just a thought...
EDIT: Added additional quote from the Essentials preview
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging.
Roll dice, not cars.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 25, 2010 - 9:13PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Nov 29, 2001
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Really, we're not going to know how it all unfolds until we see the 2011 catalog. If 2011 comes around, and all the new books are offering new options to Essentials classes, creating Essentialized versions of the Warlord and PHB2 classes, and re-publishing items and feats from old books tweaked to fit the new Essentials style, then the 4.5e camp will be able to say that it is indeed 4.5e, though of course many in the non-4.5e camp will hold out that it's not, because technically the old stuff is still supported and the revised versions of everything can play alongside the original versions. If 2011 comes around and the new books still have Fighter daily powers and Str cleric powers, and they don't bother revising the Warlord or PHB2 classes, the non-4.5e camp can say that indeed it's not 4.5e, though of course many in the 4.5e camp will say it is because the Essentials support outweighs or is more powerful than the non-Essentials support.
We'll see. Either way there will be five billion "I told you so" posts and a whole lot of derision from all sides.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 25, 2010 - 9:13PM
#23
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2004
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I don't really give a rats patootie about Essentials per se. I do worry about what it means when they say that essentials will represent the state of the game 'going forward' (yes I am paraphrasing, I don't recall how exactly they phrased it). If it means only the essentials version of the races and classes are going to see new feats/powers/etc, then I am NOT happy. IF it doesn't mean that, then I don't care.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 25, 2010 - 9:27PM
#24
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I don't really give a rats patootie about Essentials per se. I do worry about what it means when they say that essentials will represent the state of the game 'going forward' (yes I am paraphrasing, I don't recall how exactly they phrased it). If it means only the essentials version of the races and classes are going to see new feats/powers/etc, then I am NOT happy. IF it doesn't mean that, then I don't care.
Yeah, it's really all about that "going forward" stuff.
The implication that Essentials stuff will influence design on future pre-Essentials stuff (future pre-? What does that mean? ) is what makes me nervous. If Essentials had been merely a starter set with with simplified version of classes with NO NEW FEATURES (domains, schools etc), but instead new versions of existing features (new implement masteries), then everything would be nice and dandy. Supporting A would equal Supporting B, because A and B are the same.
Right now, it looks like A=/=B. Not better or worse, just more different then I'm comfortable with.
It should be noted, that if Essentials was marketed as 5e, I would be happy (in general. I don't like the Knight). Nothing in the Mage School design or Cleric Domain design is inherently bad or flawed. It's genuinely interesting design. If it was presented as such, thus implying that 4th edition was no effectively closed and unchanging, I'd be fine. I'd accept 4th becoming static (as previous players have accepted their older editions as being static), and would try a 5th edition to see if I liked it, as I did with 3rd (no I didn't like it) and 4th (why yes I did).
I guess we'll see...
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging.
Roll dice, not cars.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 25, 2010 - 9:51PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2007
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A friend of mine is planning on checking them on the net before buying them. If he ever buys them.
Some dude once said: "If WotC would put crap in boxes with the DnD logo on them, some people would still call it the best product WotC has made."
Resident Pervert.
Don't flame me for my writen errors, English is my second language.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 25, 2010 - 10:03PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jul 10, 2008
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I will definetly buy the Essentials line... everything new is good in my eyes... I'm currently creating my own campaign and I spy with my eyes that this is material I can use...
aside from that... I never ever ever ever listen to what other people tell me when it comes to movies, computer games and role-playing games/boardgames... I will buy it if I find it interesting... I have alot of rpg's on my shelves and in boxes here and there that I don't play... but I use ideas from those said games when I'm writing content for those games I do play and DM... I consider them my inspiration in a box...
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3 years ago ::
Jul 25, 2010 - 10:12PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2003
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And yet another Essentials thread gets bogged down as the same handful of doomsayers make the same claims as they are in nearly every other thread while for the most part ignoring the counterpoints to their street corner philosophising in this and other threads. In the mean time, posters with positive hopes and others with reasonable concerns waiting for more info with a little trepedation before making snap judgements are drowned out or see the thread as no place to make their voices heard.
Yay.
Knowing is Half the Battle.
The Other Half is VIOLENCE.
Imagine a lightsaber duel between Optimus Prime and Batman. You're welcome.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 25, 2010 - 10:39PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Here's my take on the whole thing.
If you already have a character, it won't mean much.
It's the rough equivalent of ten updates to DDI, Dragon articles and all. You can largely rip out the parts you don't care about and just look at the shiny new powers, errata, and feats. Then you grab what you like, figure out how to adjust to the errata, and move on. Your character won't change, and your life goes on.
If there's new characters in your future, it might matter.
Let's face it: if you're looking to make a Wizard, this newfangled 'mage' stuff may be worth checking out. It might give you options you didn't already have. It's closer to a Paragon Path than a class, so far, but oh well. If you like it, use it. If not, use what you already got.
Other than this? Well if your character can allow allies to take extra actions, you might want to know how these new potential comrades work, just to better use your own abilities.
If you aren't going to wail and gnash your teeth and never buy anything ever again...
Well, who knows? Apparently we're getting the PHB3 design philosophy with PHB1 races and classes. So we'll likely see Elves, Dwarves, and so on all get alternative stat bonuses tacked on.
I expect that existing options will be the 'freeform' ones. You take your basic Fighter as exists now if you want the most freedom. If you want something more structured or more resembling the 'traditional' classes, use the new stuff. You should still be able to cherry-pick things, but I don't know that the existing classes will maintain their current rate of expansion. They don't need to- you can already do a heck of a lot that will work with a thematic character without needing extra bits, even beyond the options in the book.
For instance, there's no Wizard class options or implements that encourage you to do nothing but throw cold spells. But you could very easily create a character whose powers, feats, path, and equipment all make cold your big signature thing.
That's not even tapping into Hybrids.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 25, 2010 - 11:03PM
#29
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From a different thread, but my opinion hasn't changed.... The people who love new options will have new options, the people who love the old classes will still have them, and the people who just love being ticked off every time WotC does anything will have something new to be ticked off about. Everybody wins!
Edited to add: I'm in the first category, by the way.
Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders. Das Fliegende Spaghettimonster helfe mir. RAmen.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2010 - 5:25AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2006
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I think I should start my very own Essentials thread. Because we just don't have enough of them.
I will be snagging the box when it comes out. Because I like the direction and like the added options.
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net
My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna
My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
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