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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 5:46AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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The way I think of it is you make a regular charge following all the normal rules, except during the movement portion you can ignore any terrain/obstacles that a teleport could bypass.
That does sound like the "very fast ghost" model. Do you see that as specific to the way Fey Charge works, or as a general principle of teleporting? I guess that is maybe a basic question I'd like to understand.
I guess I can understand it as being specific to the "replace movement" part of the feat; I would take some convincing to believe that teleportation works that way in general.
In practice, the difference would be whether, say, a dimensional marauder could use teleportation to charge to the opposite side of a target.
(Also, would it work if you used Arcane Gate? Is that relevant?)
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 5:52AM
#12
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The way I think of it is you make a regular charge following all the normal rules, except during the movement portion you can ignore any terrain/obstacles that a teleport could bypass.
That does sound like the "very fast ghost" model. Do you see that as specific to the way Fey Charge works, or as a general principle of teleporting? I guess that is maybe a basic question I'd like to understand.
I guess I can understand it as being specific to the "replace movement" part of the feat; I would take some convincing to believe that teleportation works that way in general.
In practice, the difference would be whether, say, a dimensional marauder could use teleportation to charge to the opposite side of a target.
Definitely, as you say, specific to the "replace movement" part of the feat.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 6:05AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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So the marauder would work fine? Is that the general consensus? From what ankiyavon wrote in the Q&A thread, I'm not sure he would agree.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 7:12AM
#14
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i need to put in 2 coppers and make a few corrections here ....  Action: Standard action. When a creature takes this action, it chooses a target. Determine the distance between the creature and the target, even counting through squares of blocking terrain, and then follow these steps. 1. Move: The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target, and the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its start-ing position. 2. Attack: The creature either makes a melee basic attack against the target or uses bull rush against it. The creature gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll. 3. No Further Actions: The creature can’t take any further actions during this turn, except free actions. fey charge: Benefit: When you charge, you can expend your fey step racial power as a free action to replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation. so step by step ... 1- choose target 2- determine distance 3- move (this is defined as a square by square movement) each squaqre must be close then the last to the target. 4- make attack ... as i see it if your 2 squares from the target , aka not adjacent , athen you could move next to the square on the opposite side of the target (moving from2 squares away to 1 square away). now this would cost you as i see it 3 squares worth of your move since every square teleported through counts as a cost to your movement allowance.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 7:29AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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daladinn, I would tend to read it that way too, but I'd like to be sure I understand the counterargument before I make up my mind. So far, I can see the reasoning that "replacing" movement with a teleport is more restrictive than simply moving via teleport. If you are replacing movement, then there must be an initial movement to be replaced, and there is no legal initial movement that would let you move to the opposite side of the target.
I'm a little fuzzier on why the same objection wouldn't apply to going through an obstacle though.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 8:43AM
#16
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Repost from Rules Q&A FAQ + ask a simple question:
Except, as of the newest update, it says nothing of a path. You count the distance, even through blocking terrain. Then you move up to your speed with each square of movement being closer to the target and ending a minimum of two squares from their starting square: CHARGE A TARGET Action: Standard action. When a creature takes this action, it chooses a target. Determine the distance between the creature and the target, even counting through squares of blocking terrain, and then follow these steps. 1. Move: The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target, and the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its start-ing position. 2. Attack: The creature either makes a melee basic attack against the target or uses bull rush against it. The creature gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll. 3. No Further Actions: The creature can’t take any further actions during this turn, except free actions. Fey Step allows you to "replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation". I read this as simply replacing every instance of "move" in step one with "teleport" (so long as the amount does not exceed speed or 5, whichever is lower). As illustrated in PH3 p218 Teleportation is instantaneous, you pick a destination square and arrive there -- you never occupy or enter intervening squares, even for a split second, even to figure out some "path" to get there. You pick a square within your "range" and simultaneously pop out of where you are to arrive in that square. TLDR: There is no actual path being measured or plotted at any time during a charge, just distance, and a teleport to the other side of a target that you are not already adjacent to (thus you are moving closer) and ends with you at least 2 squares from your starting position does literally fulfill every requirement for a Charge action. Addition for this thread: I can see what you're saying about doing the entire Charge action first and then adding in the Teleport/Move replacement afterwards but I wouldn't interpret it that way. The wording of Fey Step does allow both interpretations as it does not give a specific time when you replace those squares. Nevertheless, even if it's an after the fact replacement, teleporting from one square to another does not cause you to occupy any of the intervening squares. So as long as your destination square is closer to the target than the origin square I'd say you're still moving closer, no matter which side of the target each of those squares is on.
"Besides, pushing someone over a pit is still entirely 2D... it just becomes 3D rather quickly afterwards."
~ yesnomu
"Mind you, that doesn't change the fact that the poor str-priest is cowering in the corner wondering what horrible thing it was that he did that makes daddy keep hitting him so much, but it's not like the nerf was senseless."
~ SanityFaerie
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 9:00AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2007
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To make the Charge, you still need to measure the least distance from your square to the target square. Per the new rules:
This change clarifies that when you are moving as part of a charge, every square of movement must reduce the distance between you and the target, including the distance you count through blocking terrain.
When you measure the distance for your Charge, you measure directly from your square to the object square, even going through blocking terrain such as corners. You can definitely charge through a Wall of Force, as teleportation only needs Line of Sight, not Line of Effect.
_________________________________________________
"Jacking up the level rewards has always carried the taint of bribery, in my mind. If people need to be bribed to play D&D, then something's wrong with the game."
-Steve Winter (http://www.howlingtower.com/2012/01/illusory-math.html)
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 9:04AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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To make the Charge, you still need to measure the least distance from your square to the target square. Per the new rules:
This change clarifies that when you are moving as part of a charge, every square of movement must reduce the distance between you and the target, including the distance you count through blocking terrain.
When you measure the distance for your Charge, you measure directly from your square to the object square, even going through blocking terrain such as corners. You can definitely charge through a Wall of Force, as teleportation only needs Line of Sight, not Line of Effect.
But if reducing the distance is all you care about, why couldn't you teleport to behind the target? The only argument against that which I understand so far is that the teleport has to replace normal movement.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 9:09AM
#19
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To make the Charge, you still need to measure the least distance from your square to the target square. Per the new rules:
This change clarifies that when you are moving as part of a charge, every square of movement must reduce the distance between you and the target, including the distance you count through blocking terrain.
When you measure the distance for your Charge, you measure directly from your square to the object square, even going through blocking terrain such as corners. You can definitely charge through a Wall of Force, as teleportation only needs Line of Sight, not Line of Effect.
As stated, Teleport is not Move. Fey Charge replaces Move with Teleport. Teleport is square-to-square, no intervening squares are ever occupied or checked. If I were to Teleport a character I would lift the miniature off the board, consider the situation, and then place it back down wherever it can fit and that is within the distance the Teleport effect allows me to as well as my original square's Line of Sight. There is no line relevant other than, as you said, Line of Sight. There is no path of travel mentioned in Charge, only distance, and there is no path relevant to Teleportation effects.
"Every square of movement" is only relevant to one square, the destination square of the Teleport, as you never "move" through intervening squares. This is also how you avoid the obstacles and terrain in those squares; those squares are never occupied by the character.
"Besides, pushing someone over a pit is still entirely 2D... it just becomes 3D rather quickly afterwards."
~ yesnomu
"Mind you, that doesn't change the fact that the poor str-priest is cowering in the corner wondering what horrible thing it was that he did that makes daddy keep hitting him so much, but it's not like the nerf was senseless."
~ SanityFaerie
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 9:30AM
#20
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There is no path of travel mentioned in Charge, only distance, and there is no path relevant to Teleportation effects.
Except that Fey Charge specifically says "replace squares of charge movement with teleportation".
Meaning you need to define your Charge path (ignoring Blocking Terrain, as per Charge), and then use Fey Charge to replace that blocking-terrain-ignoring Movement with teleportation.
"Every square of movement" is only relevant to one square, the destination square of the Teleport, as you never "move" through intervening squares. This is also how you avoid the obstacles and terrain in those squares; those squares are never occupied by the character.
And teleporting to the far side of a target involves at least two squares of teleport distance that are NOT each taking you closer to the target, and thus they are not legal squares of teleport distance during a charge.
This is not complicated. Fey Charge doesn't say you CAN ignore the restrictions on Charge movement, therefore you can't.
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