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 Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A Charging and teleport
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 3 years ago  ::  Jul 25, 2010 - 2:15PM #171 sharkpower Date Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 445 Jul 25, 2010 -- 1:50PM, FitzNighteyes wrote:Jul 25, 2010 -- 1:27PM, sharkpower wrote:If you want to interpret this (Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target) as being for each square of movement that you spend on your moveWhy are you interpreting it that way?  It doesn't require that.  It just requires that each square bring you closer to the target.  It doesn't require that you occupy the square or spend movement points and enter it.That's the whole point.  Each square brings you closer to the target ... even though you don't physically occupy the square or spend movement points/get blocked by creatures/what have you.It's each square of movement must bring you closer to the target.Now if you want to say that you consider a teleport to be (usually) more than one square of movement, I can't say myself if RAW refutes that. I don't think RAW is clear enough on the topic. My understanding of RAW is that teleport is one square of movement that puts you in a space X squares distance away from where the origin space is... as I've said. But if you want to interpret it differently, I say: go for it.But if (as I interpret it) teleport is one square of movement (because you're leaving the origin space and appearing instantaneously in the destination space) then you only do the check for each square of movement.How can you determine if you are closer to the target from a square that you never occupy? You're not in it, there is no relative distance between you and the target to measure because you aren't there. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 3 years ago  ::  Jul 25, 2010 - 2:19PM #172 FitzNighteyes Date Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 8,989 Jul 25, 2010 -- 1:56PM, daladinn wrote:you cant have things both ways...a move is defined as leaving a square and entering anotherthe charge rules stipulate that each square moved must be closer to the target then the last.It doesn't define that those squares must be adjacent, nor does it define that the squares in between aren't part of such movement.  In fact, they must be part of movement for creatures with a teleport speed, because it moves a number of squares up to its teleport speed.  Thus the squares must be part of the movement in which it leaves one square and enters another.  (Edit: To be absolutely clear: what they have defined isn't what counts as a square of movement or how far you move, they've just defined when you as a character are moving and when you aren't ... you are moving any time you move from one square to another, no matter how it is done.  This is so that we know that things like forced movement and teleportation still count as moving.)You don't have to physically enter a square for it to bring you closer to a target.  It just has to be part of the path you take to that square, one of the ones you count to determine how far you are teleporting.Think of it as the old fashioned ether ... squares are a fixed reference point regardless of if you physically are occupying them.  You can still count them even if you aren't in them, and you are still getting closer to the target as you count them.  Then at the end of the teleport, you physically enter the final square.And when you teleport 5, you have moved 5 squares, even though you've only entered one. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 3 years ago  ::  Jul 25, 2010 - 4:26PM #173 sharkpower Date Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 445 And when you teleport 5, you have moved 5 squares, even though you've only entered one.That's your interpretation of teleporting. But by RAW, it is unclear which interpretation is correct.Move (PHB 3)Whenever a creature, an object, or an effect leaves a square to enter another, it is moving, whether that move is done willingly or is forced. We all know that distance travelled does not have to equal squares of movement used (ie Difficult Terrain). It is therefore reasonable to interpret it the way you do, and is also just as reasonable to interpret it the way I and others do.Obviously if you feel that a teleport 5 is a move of 5 squares: I see your logic.But I base my logic on teleport being a distance travelled where the only movement required is between origin space and destination space (ie 1 square). Because, like I said above, distance travelled does not have to equal squares of movement.I still hold to my point that you can't measure if you're closer to a creature from a square that you never, ever, enter. I think it's a good one! Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 3 years ago  ::  Jul 25, 2010 - 4:37PM #174 sharkpower Date Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 445 You don't have to physically enter a square for it to bring you closer to a target. The only other way for you to be closer to a target aside from physically enterring a square that is closer to the targets space (that I can think of) are:The target moves (or is moved) closer to you. Or the target grows in size such that his space now occupies squares that are closer to you.You might consider that teleporting is taking you along a path, but I think that is a stretch. Your destination square may be closer than your origin square. But the squares in between: you never occupy. You check for the legality of the teleport (distance, LoS, enough space to occupy, etc) then you disappear from your origin space and appear in the destination space instantaneously. There is no laser beam of essence that is you between the two points.By the way, why would you assume a teleport beings you from point A to point B along the shortest possible route (ie straight line). Maybe it zigzags you, maybe you go around the globe in the opposite direction. While the shortest possible route makes sense on the physical plane where objects and creatures do battle it doesn't matter for a legal (distance, LoS, enough space to occupy, etc) teleport. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 3 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 2:13AM #175 Guest869026356 Date Joined: Feb 28, 2010 Posts: 30 Jul 25, 2010 -- 4:26PM, sharkpower wrote:We all know that distance travelled does not have to equal squares of movement used (ie Difficult Terrain). It is therefore reasonable to interpret it the way you do, and is also just as reasonable to interpret it the way I and others do.You don't use squares of movement. And moving through difficult terrain does not change the number of squares moved in any way.Edit: Hmm, I guess the last sentence can be easily misunderstood. What I meant is that difficult terrain is not relevent "after the fact" in order to determine distance travelled or squares moved. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 3 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 3:07AM #176 sharkpower Date Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 445 Movement squares used is a reference to the cost to move into a square of difficult terrain. Difficult Terrain (except when it can be ignored) costs an extra square of movement to move into each square.Each square of difficult terrain you enter costs 1 extra square of movement.To clarify: my point was that while some consider a teleport from one space to another space that is 5 squares away to be a movement of 5 squares, others (like myself) consider it to be a movement of one square that costs you 5 squares of your allotted teleportation movement.My reasoning: the cost to move X squares is not always be equal to the amount of squares moved (which is why I referenced DT). Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 3 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 6:17AM #177 Guest869026356 Date Joined: Feb 28, 2010 Posts: 30 Difficult terrain movement cost is a specific rule (that beats the general rule for movement cost). If you argue that way, you will have to provide a reference to a specific rule the governs movement cost for teleportation. (As far as I know, there is no corresponding rule.) Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 3 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 11:58AM #178 sharkpower Date Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 445 The problem becomes trying to marry a teleport speed with charge.If you consider a teleport 5 to be a movement of 5 squares instead of a movement of 1 square that takes you to a non-adjacent square that is 5 squares distance away (which is what I mean when I use the word cost; "cost" just saves me from having to type that all out every time) then you can't teleport as movement for a legal charge.The reason being is you can't check your distance to the target for each square of movement if you consider teleport to be a movement of 5 squares. This is because you never enter any space except for the destination space (you don't pass through each intervening square as I established in earlier posts). Therefore there is no possible way to check if you are closer to the target in any of the intervening squares of your movement.Teleportation:Instantaneous: Teleportation is instantaneous. The target disappears and immediately appears in the destination space you choose. The movement is unhindered by intervening creatures, objects, or terrain.Now you might say: "Well fine, you can't ever teleport charge then". Because in your view teleport is a movement of multiple squares where you can't check your range to the target for each square of movement. But you can charge while flying; you can charge while swimming; with fey charge you can teleport while charging; and there are some monsters that have a teleport speed. They are able to move up to their speed (teleport speed) toward the target, which is the first part of the movement step of charging.1.    Move: The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target, and the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its start-ing position.The initial topic was how fey charge could and couldn't be used as part of a legal charge. The only way fey charge works in RAW (due to the "Each square of movement must bring the creature closer" stipulation of charge) is either...A: Teleport is a movement of 1 square that takes you to a non-adjacent square that is X squares distance away and replaces some of your available allotted movement squares.B: You replace each individual square of movement with a single square teleport (or blinking along the path as some have suggested calling it).C: Move your character along the charge path in the physical realm, checking that the movement is legal along each step, then rewind as if you hadn't done that to some point along the movement and then teleport.D: Say "eet works for fey charge, i don't needs to esplain eet."I personally like option A, but I can definitely see why people might disagree with that interpretation.I don't like B, and most people don't because it renders fey charge useless with the exception of charging around a hard corner, through some kind of difficult/hindering/elevated terrain or through a small opening that you can see through but can't pass through.Some people think you should do C, but the problem arrises when you consider things that hinder normal movements, so you have to chart your movement in a non-teleporting movement mode while ignoring all the things that teleport ignores (and enemies have to ignore that you're doing that movement as well), and then you have to rewind to some point in that movement and say, "Ok, now I'm going swap to a teleport back when I was back here. But of course to do that I have to ignore the fact that teleport never lets me check the intervening squares for close-ness to target because teleport doesn't allow me to ever enter those squares in the first place whatsoever."if you wanna go with the last option, D, by all means do that and keep the game rolling. Just don't be surprised if you find yourself arguing the validity of your charge with your DM (or your players if you happen to be the guy behind the screen).On a final note, yes the use of the word cost opens up a can of worms that can be avoided with a long winded explanation of how I interpret teleport to work and I use "cost" to save myself a bit of time typing out longer than necessary sentences that too quickly become run-on's that are very hard to follow (such as this sentence). I'll try to be more exact when I can. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 3 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 1:27PM #179 FitzNighteyes Date Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 8,989 Jul 25, 2010 -- 4:37PM, sharkpower wrote:You might consider that teleporting is taking you along a path, but I think that is a stretch. Your destination square may be closer than your origin square. But the squares in between: you never occupy. You check for the legality of the teleport (distance, LoS, enough space to occupy, etc) then you disappear from your origin space and appear in the destination space instantaneously. There is no laser beam of essence that is you between the two points.Why is it a stretch?  It's part of determining the movement of the teleport.  If you don't count them as the movement, you can't determine how far you have teleported.  Your physical occupancy of the squares in question is irrelevent to you having used them to determine your movement.You seem to be awfully attached to turning the rules for determining the movement into some physical interpretation.  They are just abstract rules.  You don't need to "laser beam" connect the two points of the teleportation, you just count the squares to get from point A to point B, and determine if each square of the movement gets you closer to your target or not.  Being in the squares, passing through the squares, or any physical analog isn't necessary. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 3 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 2:16PM #180 sharkpower Date Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 445 Jul 26, 2010 -- 1:27PM, FitzNighteyes wrote:Jul 25, 2010 -- 4:37PM, sharkpower wrote:You might consider that teleporting is taking you along a path, but I think that is a stretch. Your destination square may be closer than your origin square. But the squares in between: you never occupy. You check for the legality of the teleport (distance, LoS, enough space to occupy, etc) then you disappear from your origin space and appear in the destination space instantaneously. There is no laser beam of essence that is you between the two points.Why is it a stretch?  It's part of determining the movement of the teleport.  If you don't count them as the movement, you can't determine how far you have teleported.  Your physical occupancy of the squares in question is irrelevent to you having used them to determine your movement.You seem to be awfully attached to turning the rules for determining the movement into some physical interpretation.  They are just abstract rules.  You don't need to "laser beam" connect the two points of the teleportation, you just count the squares to get from point A to point B, and determine if each square of the movement gets you closer to your target or not.  Being in the squares, passing through the squares, or any physical analog isn't necessary."Must bring the creature closer to the target", the only way to determine if the creature is closer to the target is for the creature to be one point of reference.You're focused on the word bring in that you feel each square must be closer to the target, I'm focused on the relation of creature to target.A better wording for your interpretation would be: Each square of movement, that brings the creature, must be closer to the target.A better wording for my interpretation would be: Each square of movement must result in the creature being closer to the target.There's no question that it can be interpretted more than one way (this discussion is proof).But yes, you're right, for determining the distance from one creature to another I usually use the creatures and the distance (in squares) inbetween. I have a harder time determining distance between creatures when one of them is not occupying the squares that I'm measuring to, because that creature isn't there.Teleportation does not say that the creature or object is ever being brought across the squares inbetween in any way shape or form. Teleportation doesn't say it brings you over, under, around, or through each individual square between the origin and destination space. It mentions two spaces: origin and destination. You are disappearing from one square and instantaneously appearing in the other. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply?
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 Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A Charging and teleport
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