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3 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2010 - 8:41PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Per a discussion in the Q&A thread, can someone explain why you can't use Fey Charge to teleport to the opposite side of your target as part of a charge attack? It's not clear to me why that would violate the charge rules, since each square you move still takes you closer to the target.
Fey Charge
Benefit: When you charge, you can expend your fey step racial power as a free action to replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation.
------------------------------- Edit:
In case you don't want to read the whole thread, here's my effort at a summary of the various interpretations.
For teleporting charges in general:
Option 1: When you teleport, you only actually "move" one square, since you exit one square and enter another. Because charging requires you to move at least two squares, you can't teleport at all as part of a charge (unless you have a special ability like Fey Charge).
Option 2: When you teleport you move a number of squares given by the distance travelled, but you need to count out those squares to actually determine that distance. As you count out those squares, you are using up your movement allowance (or "squares of movement") for the teleport. The charge rules require that each square of movement you expend must bring you closer to the target. If you try to teleport to the opposite side of the target, you will necessarily spend some squares of movement that don't bring you closer to the target, so it is not allowed.
Option 3: When you teleport you do move multiple squares, but you do not in any sense pass through the intervening squares. Charging only requires that the actual squares you enter bring you closer to the target, so as long as your destination square is closer to the target than your initial square, you can charge to the opposite side.
I have some reservations about Option 1, myself, but Options 2 and 3 seem like pretty legitimate interpretations. Customer Service supported the conclusion of Option 2 (without suggesting that they had spent a lot of time thinking about it).
Even if you go with Option 3 in general, there is still an argument that Fey Charge in particular does not allow you to charge to the opposite side: Fey Charge says you can "replace" squares of movement with teleportation. This implies that you must determine a legal path for your charge prior to the replacement, so that there is something to replace. Since a non-teleporting charge can't end at the opposite side, there's no way for the replacement to allow it. Customer Service supports this interpretation as well.
(In contrast, you could interpret "replace" to simply mean that you can teleport as part of the charge instead of moving normally, and then you can follow whatever you think is the general charge rule.)
---- Cust Serv responses:
Hello,
I'm not sure how the charge rules and the teleport rules should interact. Can a creature with a teleport speed (like a pit fiend) use teleportation to charge to the opposite side of a target? If it helps, a diagram of what I'm thinking is (with F = pit fiend, C = character being charged, . = empty):
before teleport: F....C.
after teleport: .....CF
Under the original charge rules this was pretty clearly not allowed, but I'm not sure about the updated rules. Thanks for any advice you can give.
Great question,
When something has Teleport in its speed characteristic it can teleport for it's charge however it still has to follow all the normal charge rules. So it is unable to end its charge on the opposite side of the charged target.
Chase
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we have been having a LONG and drawn out debate on fey charge in regards to ....
1 - the new charge rules
2 - the new movement rules
3 - the new teleportation rules
feat :Benefit: When you charge, you can expend your fey step racial power as a free action to replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation.
now we have had several concepts on how this plays out. it seems to many that the word "replace" is a crucial key here
example one ... you are 4 squares away from your target forcing you to move 3 squares on the charge.using fey charge you teleport one square at a time for a total of 3 seperate teleports to land adjacent to the target.
example two ... you have a movement speed of 6 and decide to replace 4 of these 6 squares of movement with a teleport effectively giving you a combined move2/teleport4. so you move 1 square , then teleport 4 squares , then move 1 square
the key to these 2 concepts is in the moving closer to the target description in the charge rules. in example 1 , each single square of teleportation is checked for distance/direction. in example 2 you compare the place you left the teleport 4 witht eh place you land the teleport 4 and the landing must be closer to the target then the launch point.
so? thoughts?
Hello. The Fey Charge feat allows you to replace up to five squares of movement with teleportation. Therefore you will plot your course as usual for a charge then you will be able to replace up to five squares of the charge path with teleportation movement.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 2:54AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2006
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I am not 100% on this, but I will take a stab at it:
Fey Charge allows you to specifically replace 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation. If your charge movement would not normally allow you to reach a square on the far side of your adversary, this teleporting movement cannot either.
Basically:
step 1: chart out your proposed movement as per the normal charge rules.
Step 2: specify up to 5 squares of -that movement course- to be teleportation in place of normal movement.
step 3: process the action (and any interrupts/reactions).
However, it seems clear that the teleportation segment should be subject to normal teleportation restrictions (must see destination, cannot be under an effect that prevents teleportation) but should not be subject to restrictions that teleportation normally bypasses (can travel vertically or over open gaps or through transparent solid objects without hinderance or skill checks, can travel even if immobilized or restrained).
That gives you some leeway to argue, I suppose.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 3:04AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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You can't teleport behind it.
Teleport is still a movement mode and charge explicitally say that Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target.
Actually Play'ng:
Nothing. My old party is full of short-sighted racists and sexists (on their own admission), so I left.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 3:35AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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I am not 100% on this, but I will take a stab at it:
Fey Charge allows you to specifically replace 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation. If your charge movement would not normally allow you to reach a square on the far side of your adversary, this teleporting movement cannot either.
Basically:
step 1: chart out your proposed movement as per the normal charge rules.
Step 2: specify up to 5 squares of -that movement course- to be teleportation in place of normal movement.
step 3: process the action (and any interrupts/reactions).
However, it seems clear that the teleportation segment should be subject to normal teleportation restrictions (must see destination, cannot be under an effect that prevents teleportation) but should not be subject to restrictions that teleportation normally bypasses (can travel vertically or over open gaps or through transparent solid objects without hinderance or skill checks, can travel even if immobilized or restrained).
That gives you some leeway to argue, I suppose.
I can understand this reasoning, but doesn't it mean that if there in an obstacle in the way, say a wall of force, then you can't use Fey Charge, because you couldn't chart out your proposed movement per the normal rules first?
You can't teleport behind it.
Teleport is still a movement mode and charge explicitally say that Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target.
This I don't understand. Which square of movement is not bringing me closer to the target?
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 3:50AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2010
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Teleporting itself does not count as moving over any squares inbetween the 2 teleport distances. But Fey Charge is a Charge in the first place and a teleport after that.
That means you should specify your charge first (which has to be to the nearest square adjacent to the target) and then replace part of that charge with a teleport.
But as a similar case: Would Fey Charge allow you to charge over a pit?
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 4:14AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Teleporting itself does not count as moving over any squares inbetween the 2 teleport distances. But Fey Charge is a Charge in the first place and a teleport after that.
That means you should specify your charge first (which has to be to the nearest square adjacent to the target) and then replace part of that charge with a teleport.
But as a similar case: Would Fey Charge allow you to charge over a pit?
So you would indeed say that you can't Fey Charge through a wall of force?
I thought about the pit, but I figured that since you could in principle jump over it, you can still plot a legal charge over it.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 4:16AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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You can't teleport behind it.
Teleport is still a movement mode and charge explicitally say that Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target.
Actually maybe I can understand that you are saying that when you teleport, you actually do move through all the intervening squares between where you are and where you're going. Sort like you become a very fast ghost.
In this reasoning then, Fey Charge is irrelevant; even if I had a teleportation movement mode, I couldn't use it to charge to a square behind the target.
On the other hand, the wall of force would be no obstacle.
Is this basically what you're saying?
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 4:53AM
#8
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you jsut need the roundabout charge feat and your all good. then feycharge will do what you want
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 5:20AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Mostly I just want to understand the argument being made. I'm not particularly attached to charging that way.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2010 - 5:35AM
#10
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The way I think of it is you make a regular charge following all the normal rules, except during the movement portion you can ignore any terrain/obstacles that a teleport could bypass.
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