If you want to argue about this with me, too, PM me, don't do it here.
Re: scope of the thread. How about this, I think it's a good plan: Ask the OP if he wants to change the thread to accomodate this new project of yours. If he doesn't respond in 24 hours, you can abandon it or make a new thread devoted to it.
Technically, if you're being negative, you're being destructive. You can try to rationalize it all you wish, but...
And as far as exaggeration, I specifically stated 'of those I have seen' - I don't browse the simple questions posts because they're too fragmented and all-encompassing for my preferences. I prefer specific threads for specific subjects. So perhaps I'm off on your total percentage, but of the replies you make in said specific posts about specific subjects, I would bet that 80% is the minimum number of your posts which are negative and destructive. I know when I just perused the last several days' worth of your posts, that is the truth.
And before this goes into some kind of flame war, I wasn't posting that as an attack against you, but as an honest question. Have you ever looked at how negative you are on the forums and asked yourself why you are? Maybe you know why and you're happy/satisfied with it . . . if that is the case I feel sorry for you. If you simply didn't realize how negative you are... maybe you should step back and think about it?
Anyway, well reasoned 'general consensus' subjective metrics are where all of our modern sciences started, and where they are still progressed. There is nothing wrong with presenting a thread of such information as long as it is clarified to be what it is from the outset. If you have issues with it, try to simply stay out of it rather than attacking it.
That is nonsense. Telling someone they are wrong when they are wrong is not inherently negative. It might not be something they want to hear, but your argument is the equivalent of saying that telling a child that, no, 2+2=5 is wrong and it is "negative" to do so. Clearly we just shouldn't educate people because we'll have to be "negative."
Considering you can't even tell when something is negative I think I'll just accept your perceived percentage and call it a win for me. 80% of my posts are correcting people who are wrong. Sounds about right, actually.
Hahahahahah. No. Science is neither subjective nor a matter of consensus. The exact opposite is true. I reccomend to your attention the book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" by Thomas Kuhn, which goes into the interesting fact that, in the vasty majority of cases, general consensus is wrong in science and you have to literally wait for the people who are to stubborn to admit they are wrong to die off before new, correct, theories are accepted. Because science is objective they know they are wrong long before, but they just can't accept it. Sound familiar?
Anyway, well reasoned 'general consensus' subjective metrics are where all of our modern sciences started, and where they are still progressed. There is nothing wrong with presenting a thread of such information as long as it is clarified to be what it is from the outset. If you have issues with it, try to simply stay out of it rather than attacking it.
And if you can't be bothered finding the book, go read this. Or, you know , go look up the what the Scientific Method actually is.
Alright, time to put my money where my mouth is. I'll do an experiment where I compare the damage reduction per round (DRPR) of Darth Vader, one of the first and best Ultimate Defenders, to Jimmy, a generic Shielding Swordmage. Darth Vader was chosen because of his insane defender abilities and as an hommage to the OP. This way, we might find out if the DRPR-idea is viable.
(TL;DR at the bottom)
Some groundrules:
- The comparison will be at level 30 against same-level enemies - At this level enemies attack with +35 vs AC and +33 vs NADs and deal an average 38 damage (4d8+20) when they hit - To calculate damage reduction, you need a damage baseline. This baseline will be the DPR of a level 30 monster vs a level 30 ally that has level+16 AC and level+14 NADs (so that's 46/44/44/44). This results in a damage baseline of 38*0.5 = 19 DPR. - I will compare tactics that are sustainable at-will over a theoretical limitless number of rounds, at any encounter during the day. So no daily powers (even if their effect lasts for an entire encounter) or encounter powers (unless their effects lasts for an entire encounter, i.e. Trick of Knowledge).* - At their core, Ultimate Defenders are about optimizing their catch-22 (see original post). So for both defenders, I will first calculate the DRPR numbers for attacking the defender and for attacking his allies, and then compare those 4 numbers to each other to reach a conclusion.
*Istaran put forth the idea of the "defender nova" some posts back, which does use daily or encounter powers. This is an interesting idea which may be explored in future posts.
We assume Darth Vader can sustain the following defender tricks: - Aegis mark 2 enemies for a -3 penalty to attack his allies (Mark of Warding) - Curse and attack both of these enemies every round with Sword Burst to inflict another -2 penalty to attack his allies (Protective Hex) and a general -2 attack penalty (Sorrowsong Blade, Psychic Lock) - Reduce the damage both of these enemies deal to his allies by 23 (Aegis of Shielding, Rapid Aegis Reaction), gaining 23 THPs every time he prevents the damage (Baldric of Shielding) - Increase all his defenses by 9 (Armor of Dark Majesty, Warding Curse, concealment thanks to Phantom Chaussures, Trick of Knowledge + Mark of Warding benefit) - Gain resist 5 all by having at least 2 enemies marked (Strength Through Challenge)
Darth Vader effectively has 55 AC, 52 Fort, 53 Ref, 54 Will, and resist 5 all.
DRPR if enemies attack Darth Vader: So basically, an enemy can only hit Darth Vader on a crit. So the DPR for one enemy is 47 (crit with 4d8+20 minus resist 5) * 0.05 = 2.35. This results in a DRPR of 19-2.35 = 16.65. We double this number because Darth Vader has 2 enemies marked and cursed.
Total DRPR: 33.3.
DRPR if enemies attack Vader's allies: An enemy takes a -7 penalty to attack Vader's allies, so it only hits on 18 or higher. Furthermore, when it hits, Vader reduces that damage by 23. DPR: (38-23)*0.1+(52-23)*0.05 = 2.95. DRPR: 16.05. Vader also gains 23 THPs when this happens, so that's an additional 23*0.15 = 3.45 DRPR for a total of 19.5. We double this number because Vader can do this twice each round.
Jimmy is a generic level 30 defender with defenses of level+18/16/16/16.
48 AC, 46 Fort, 46 Ref, 46 Will.
Jimmy has put the bare minimum of effort into his defender arsenal by taking Total Aegis and Rapid Aegis Reaction. He does not have Vader's other swordmage tricks like Baldric of Shielding, Strength Through Challenge and Sword Burst + Psychic Lock. So Jimmy has 2 enemies marked each round, and can use his Aegis of Shielding twice to reduce damage by 23 points.
DRPR if enemies attack Jimmy: An enemy hits Jimmy on 13 or higher. So the DPR for one enemy is 38*0.35+52*0.05 = 15.9. This results in a DRPR of 19-15.9 = 3.1. We double this number because Jimmy has 2 enemies marked.
Total DRPR: 6.2.
DRPR if enemies attack Jimmy's allies: An enemy takes a -2 penalty to attack Jimmy's allies, so they hit on 13 or higher. Furthermore, when it hits, Jimmy reduces that damage by 23. DPR: (38-23)*0.35+(52-23)*0.05 = 6.7. DRPR: 19-6.7 = 12.3. We double this number because Jimmy can do this twice each round.
Total DRPR: 26.3.
Conclusion: Jimmy had better put some extra effort into his own defenses, because any DM worth his salt will first take Jimmy out before they'll focus on the rest of the party.
So now we have 4 numbers:
Vader: - 33.3 (DRPR when enemies attack Vader) - 39 (DRPR when enemies attack Vader's allies)
Jimmy: - 6.2 (DRPR when enemies attack Jimmy) - 26.3 (DRPR when enemies attack Jimmy's allies)
If we assume intelligent behaviour, a DM will always go for maximum achievable damage. That means we should compare the lowest DRPR numbers for each build, i.e. 33.3 for Vader vs 6.2 for Jimmy. That's a difference of 27.1.
What does this number mean? Basically it means that a party with Vader takes 27.1 damage less per round than a party with a generic defender like Jimmy. Not a very impressive number, seeing as how even a generic level 30 Ranger already has 172 HP. The DRPR number also does not account for the following:
- Status effects prevented - Retaliation effects, like damage from White Lotus Riposte - Punishment other than damage reduction, like dealing damage to the offending enemy (actually the most common form of punishment across the classes)
And I'm sure there are other effects that I've not included in this list.
Conclusion: DRPR can be useful to calculate the effectiveness of a defender's catch-22. More to the point, to see if your defender has achieved a good balance between both catch-22 tactics as can be read in the OP:
So working the defender catch-22 consists of this general process: 1. Improve the "attack me!" until it outstrips the "don't attack me!" 2. Improve the "don't attack me!" until it catches up to the "attack me!" 3. Repeat until you run out of resources.
If your DRPR is low, that might mean you need to work on either point 1. or point 2.
BUT, DRPR falls short in situations where either damage reduction is not the most important thing (status effects), or where your defender's catch-22 can't be expressed in terms of damage reduction (having low defenses but high HP, or dealing damage in retaliation).
Defenders that defend by preventing damage, like Darth Vader (high defenses, Aegis of shielding, and attack penalties) or Shield Push Fighters (high defenses, interrupting attacks), are just a subsection of the role. There are a lot of defenders that punish in other ways, like dealing damage or having high HP. For those types of defenders, other metrics would have to be developed. And seeing how I've already invested a lot of time in DRPR, I'll let someone else come up with those.
Thank you for reading.
TL;DR DRPR is only a usable metric to measure the effectiveness of defenders that have a catch-22 that prevents damage. For other defenders, like Assault Swordmages that deal damage as punishment or Wardens that just have a lot of HP, you need different metrics.
DRPR is only a usable metric to measure the effectiveness of defenders that have a catch-22 that prevents damage. For other defenders, like Assault Swordmages that deal damage as punishment or Wardens that just have a lot of HP, you need different metrics.
I don't think anyone is going to argue with this. The bit people seemed to be arguing with was that this is a useful metric for *all* defenders, which is what the earlier posts on the subject were suggesting.
Also, comparing different metrics for different types of defenders is going to be *really* hard.
DRPR is only a usable metric to measure the effectiveness of defenders that have a catch-22 that prevents damage. For other defenders, like Assault Swordmages that deal damage as punishment or Wardens that just have a lot of HP, you need different metrics.
I don't think anyone is going to argue with this. The bit people seemed to be arguing with was that this is a useful metric for *all* defenders, which is what the earlier posts on the subject were suggesting.
Also, comparing different metrics for different types of defenders is going to be *really* hard.
That. But it isn't a useless metric to look at either, for any defender. Judging how much a low DRPR compared to an excellent HP absorbtion/healing efficiency or high punishment damage output matters would be chore, but looking at different aspects of what creates an effective defender in toto seems worthwhile.
I would like help for a very specific build of defender I have in mind but I don't know how to put it together. The character must be level 6, a hybrid between a paladin and sorcerer (story-driven decision) and a tiefling. Below, I submited my idea, a first draft of which I am not very happy.
ITEMS Screaming Plate Armor +1, Sunblade Longsword +1, Symbol of the Champion's Code +2, Heavy Shield, Belt of Vigor (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Cloak of Distortion +1, Headband of Perception (heroic tier) ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
What do I wish to accomplish? The catch-22 I am aiming for is this: if enemies hit me, they get damaged (by the various sorcerer powers), if they miss me I did my job (they attacked me, not one of my allies) and if they attempt to attack an ally, they get damaged by the divine sanction and have a -3 penalty to the attack roll. Any ideas are welcome!
