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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Optim.. Ioun Grey Stone Marker: Half-Elf Tank 3.0 Catch-22
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Switch to Forum Live View Ioun Grey Stone Marker: Half-Elf Tank 3.0 Catch-22
3 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2010 - 10:14AM #1
Mommy_was_an_Orc
Date Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Posts: 4,972
A Battlemind|Fighter - Defender|Defender build with one of the nastiest catch-22 problems out there.

Essentially, uses Daring Blade from Bard to be a Con/Cha build. Mixes and matches from both sets of powers - Brash Strike means the build gets to add +Cha to Defenses, Brutal Barrage means lots of attacks, and Lightning Rush gives great options for attacking out of turn. Eldritch Strike is for the melee basic.

Spoiler: Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Battlemind|Fighter, level 13
Half-Elf, Fighter|Battlemind, Daring Blade
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): Hybrid Power Point Option
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Wand)
Hybrid Talent: Combat Specialty
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Combat Specialty: Combat Superiority (Hybrid)
Background: Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 21, Dex 13, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 30 Fort: 25 Reflex: 22 Will: 25
HP: 108 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Streetwise +16, Bluff +16, Endurance +14, Perception +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +5, Diplomacy +13, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +5, Insight +8, Intimidate +11, Nature +6, Religion +5, Stealth +5, Thievery +5, Athletics +5

FEATS
Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma) (retrained to Versatile Master at Level 11)
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Battering Shield
Level 8: Bardic Dilettante
Level 10: Harlequin Style
Level 11: Hindering Shield
Level 12: Arcane Familiar

POWERS
Dilettante: Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Twisted Eye
Hybrid at-will 1: Brash Strike
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Blurred Step
Hybrid daily 1: Steel Unity Strike
Hybrid utility 2: Psionic Vigor
Hybrid at-will 3: Twisted Eye (replaces Twisted Eye)
Hybrid encounter 3: Shield Edge Block
Hybrid daily 5: Rain of Steel
Hybrid utility 6: Daring Shot
Hybrid at-will/encounter 7: Lightning Rush
Hybrid daily 9: Iron Tomb
Hybrid utility 10: Fighter's Grit
Hybrid at-will/encounter 13: Brutal Barrage (replaces Spectral Legion)

ITEMS
Timeless Locket +3, Heavy Shield, Wyvernscale Armor of Dwarven Vigor +3, Staggering Warhammer +3, Rushing Cleats
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Level 21 version:

Spoiler: Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Battlemind|Fighter, level 21
Half-Elf, Fighter|Battlemind, Daring Blade, Invincible Mind
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): Hybrid Power Point Option
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Wand)
Hybrid Talent: Combat Specialty
Combat Specialty: Combat Superiority (Hybrid)
Background: Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 24, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 24.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 36 Fort: 36 Reflex: 30 Will: 34
HP: 159 Surges: 16 Surge Value: 39

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +22, Bluff +22, Endurance +24, Perception +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Arcana +10, Diplomacy +19, Dungeoneering +11, Heal +11, History +10, Insight +13, Nature +11, Religion +10, Stealth +10, Streetwise +17, Thievery +10, Athletics +9

FEATS
Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma) (retrained to Versatile Master at Level 11)
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Battering Shield
Level 8: Bardic Dilettante
Level 10: Harlequin Style
Level 11: Hindering Shield
Level 12: Arcane Familiar
Level 14: Hammer Shock
Level 16: Paragon Defenses (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 21)
Level 18: Striking Resurgence
Level 20: Improved Initiative
Level 21: Overwhelming Impact

POWERS
Dilettante: Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Brash Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Twisted Eye
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Blurred Step
Hybrid daily 1: Steel Unity Strike
Hybrid utility 2: Psionic Vigor
Hybrid at-will 3: Twisted Eye (replaces Twisted Eye)
Hybrid encounter 3: Shield Edge Block
Hybrid daily 5: Rain of Steel
Hybrid utility 6: Daring Shot
Hybrid at-will/encounter 7: Lightning Rush
Hybrid daily 9: Iron Tomb
Hybrid utility 10: Fighter's Grit
Hybrid at-will/encounter 13: Brutal Barrage (replaces Twisted Eye)
Hybrid daily 15: Unyielding Avalanche (replaces Steel Unity Strike)
Hybrid utility 16: Iron Warrior
Hybrid at-will/encounter 17: Anvil of Doom (replaces Shield Edge Block)
Hybrid daily 19: Mind Blade (replaces Iron Tomb)

ITEMS
Heavy Shield, Diamond Cincture (paragon tier), Staggering Warhammer +4, Timeless Locket +4, Foe Binder Ring (paragon tier), Dwarven Wyrmscale Armor +4, Strikebacks (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Circlet of Arkhosia (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



Level 21 version post-Essentials:

Spoiler: Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Battlemind|Fighter, level 21
Half-Elf, Fighter|Battlemind, Daring Blade, Invincible Mind
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): Hybrid Power Point Option
Hybrid Talent: Combat Specialty
Combat Specialty: Combat Superiority (Hybrid)
Background: Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 24, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 24.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 36 Fort: 36 Reflex: 30 Will: 34
HP: 159 Surges: 16 Surge Value: 39

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +22, Bluff +22, Endurance +24, Perception +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Arcana +10, Diplomacy +19, Dungeoneering +11, Heal +11, History +10, Insight +13, Nature +11, Religion +10, Stealth +10, Streetwise +17, Thievery +10, Athletics +9

FEATS
Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma) (retrained to Versatile Master at Level 11)
Level 2: Bludgeon Expertise
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Battering Shield
Level 8: Master of Stories
Level 10: Harlequin Style
Level 11: Hindering Shield
Level 12: Improved Defenses
Level 14: Hammer Shock
Level 16: Arcane Familiar
Level 18: Striking Resurgence
Level 20: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 11)
Level 21: Overwhelming Impact

POWERS
Dilettante: Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Brash Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Twisted Eye
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Blurred Step
Hybrid daily 1: Living Fortress
Hybrid utility 2: Psionic Vigor
Hybrid at-will 3: Twisted Eye (replaces Twisted Eye)
Hybrid encounter 3: Shield Edge Block
Hybrid daily 5: Rain of Steel
Hybrid utility 6: Kirre's Roar
Hybrid at-will/encounter 7: Lightning Rush
Hybrid daily 9: Iron Tomb
Hybrid utility 10: Fighter's Grit
Hybrid at-will/encounter 13: Brutal Barrage (replaces Twisted Eye)
Hybrid daily 15: Unyielding Avalanche (replaces Living Fortress)
Hybrid utility 16: Iron Warrior
Hybrid at-will/encounter 17: Anvil of Doom (replaces Shield Edge Block)
Hybrid daily 19: Mind Blade (replaces Iron Tomb)

ITEMS
Heavy Shield, Diamond Cincture (paragon tier), Staggering Warhammer +4, Timeless Locket +4, Foe Binder Ring (paragon tier), Dwarven Wyrmscale Armor +4, Strikebacks (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Circlet of Arkhosia (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Tactics:
Spoiler: Show
So what does this build do and do differently than the normal tank builds:
Can use Charisma to make martial melee attack rolls at 11th. This explains the oddball Str score for the Fighter side.

Harlequin Style: Brash Strike with +Cha to defenses. At 11th+, this ends up being +3 to +7 bonus to all defenses against my primary marked target. Woe to the Solo without bonus damage on CA when this happens...this also results in pretty good at-will damage due to the high Con.

Slide: Eldritch Strike can slide 7 squares at 13th(1 for Eldritch, 1 for Bludgeoning Expertise, 1 for Battering Shield, 1 for Rushing Cleats, 3 for Staggering Weapon)

Okay, but how is this different? It is different in that it has both elements of a catch-22 going on and extremely strongly - in the round, the character generally does the following:
Brash Strike with Harlequin Stance.

So now the opponent has a number of options, all of which are bad:
Try to shift and charge. If the enemy shifts, it activates Combat Challenge and then Blurred Step. On the charge, it then provokes an OA, which gives yet another attack and the potential of stopping it. Odds are pretty high of being Slid and Slowed, which can remove any possible targets.

Try to attack the Battlemind|Fighter. Due to Harlequin Stance and the +5 from Cha(+6 or better after 13th), this means effectively +3 to all defenses and the possibility of a Shield Edge Block to make that +7.

Try to move, then charge. OA can stop the move, slide the foe 6 squares away from opponents, and then unlike most Tank builds, this results in the opponent now being slowed. Likely, the target is still nearby, and so triggers Lightning Rush. With the Augment 2, the character is now the target of the attack and has the +3 to all defenses.

Attack an opponent while adjacent to this character. CC, if it hits, slides the target 6 squares away and slows it - as it is an interrupt, the attack is almost certainly negated.

Do a Close Burst. Best option, but still, going to be targeting the attack at a -3 to the Battlemind, -7 if Shield Edge Block is still available.

------------

Also, another option available to the character is to simply use the melee basic as a controller might - slide 7 + slow is quite nasty - hit an enemy in front of me, slide him next to someone I want to also mark, move up to them both, and spend a power point to augment so they're both marked. Or slide them through a trap or zone. Or slide them out of range of everyone so they can't even attack if they're a melee monster.

If someone is trying to block me from getting an my intended target, I can use the melee basic on them or even just use the Brash Strike on them and when someone else triggers my Lightning Rush option, I can then move around them - they'll likely miss with their OA. This also works when I want to cause other kinds of havoc, such on my first turn before my initiative comes up.

Finally, the Arcane Familiar is a Gallant Hawk - this gives all the benefits of Daunting Challenge(-3 to marks who don't attack you) and also grants a +2 to Perception and an encounter marking power.




30th level version
level 30 Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Battlemind|Fighter, level 30
Half-Elf, Fighter/Battlemind, Daring Blade, Invincible Mind
Eldritch Strike Option: Eldritch Strike Charisma
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid) Option: Hybrid Power Point Option
Hybrid Talent Option: Psionic Study (Hybrid)
Psionic Study (Hybrid) Option: Speed of Thought (Hybrid)
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Dilettante
Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 26, DEX 15, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 26
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 16, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16
 
 
AC: 46 Fort: 47 Ref: 38 Will: 47
HP: 215 Surges: 17 Surge Value: 53
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +28, Endurance +32, Intimidate +28, Religion +20
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Arcana +15, Athletics +14, Diplomacy +25, Dungeoneering +16, Heal +16, History +15, Insight +18, Nature +16, Perception +16, Stealth +20, Streetwise +23, Thievery +15
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Battlemind Feature: Battlemind's Demand
Battlemind Feature: Blurred Step
Battlemind Feature: Speed of Thought
Bard Feature: Majestic Word
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Brash Strike
Fighter Utility 2: Glowering Threat
Battlemind Utility 6: Winged Weapon
Religion Utility 6: Deliverance of Faith
Battlemind Attack 7: Lightning Rush
Fighter Utility 10: Fighter's Grit
Daring Blade Attack 11: Weapon Display
Daring Blade Utility 12: Defensive Posture (Daring Blade)
Fighter Attack 13: Anvil of Doom
Fighter Attack 15: Unyielding Avalanche
Battlemind Attack 15: Mind Blade
Fighter Utility 16: Iron Warrior
Daring Blade Attack 20: Offensive Spin Slash
Fighter Utility 22: Martial Supremacy
Fighter Attack 25: Reaper's Stance
Invincible Mind Utility 26: Indomitable Strategem
Battlemind Attack 27: Brilliant Recovery
 
FEATS
Level 2: Bludgeon Expertise
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Quick Reactions
Level 8: Master of Stories
Level 10: Harlequin Style
Level 11: Hindering Shield
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Improved Defenses
Level 14: Hammer Shock
Level 16: World Serpent's Grasp
Level 21: Overwhelming Impact
Level 21: Superior Initiative
Level 22: Rapid Combat Challenge
Level 22: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 24: Armor Specialization (Scale)
Level 26: Skill Power
Level 28: Martial Mastery
Level 30: Epic Will
 
ITEMS
Heavy Shield x1
Strikebacks (heroic tier) x1
Ring of Free Time (epic tier) x1
Dwarven Titanscale Armor +6 x1
Circlet of Arkhosia (epic tier) x1
Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier) x1
Belt of the Witch King (paragon tier) x1
Staggering Warhammer +6 x1
Greater Ring of Invisibility (epic tier) x1
Stone of Earth (paragon tier)
Dice of Auspicious Fortune (paragon tier)
Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier) x1
Airstriders (epic tier) x1
Cloak of Distortion +6 x1
Feyslaughter Warhammer +5
====== End ======


Epic Tactics:
Spoiler: Show

Belt of Witch King is likely powered by Offensive Spin Slash for 40 hp of instant healing 1/day.

Moves 12 squares upon rolling initiative, likely goes first with a +41 Initiative. On the 1st turn, he's got a speed of 8 due to Quick Reactions. Airstriders mean he can fly 10 squares as a move action. So let's say something is flying 21 squares up, cackling evilly about how poor melee types will never get to it. He flies 10 squares up, does Martial Supremacy stance, then charges it with Eldritch Strike. He gets to roll twice to hit and on a hit, slides it 8 squares down and slows it. He then APs to charge it. Again getting to roll twice to hit, and on a hit, he slides it 8 squares down, dazes it(Overwhelming Strike) and prones it(World Serpent). He then falls down on his feet standing right next to it.

Ring of Free Time allows Greater Invisibility Ring use, Quickened Spellcasting with Eldritch Strike, swapping out weapons if there's a teleport threat, etc...

Defenses are usually going to be a lot higher than they appear - he gets effectively +7 to all defenses against Brash Strike target, +2 to all defenses from Concealment after a milestone after using Ring of Greater Invisibility, and +6 to all defenses against ranged attacks that are too far away from him)


Ioun Grey Stone dnd4e file on iplay4e
(Click on file once there to download for your own upload)

Thoughts?
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2010 - 11:41AM #2
AlphatheGreat
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 1,547
An excellent demonstration of the shenanigans that Defenders can get up to with the right balance of tactics, well done.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2010 - 1:20PM #3
Jack of All Trades
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2005
Posts: 841
I've been trying to come up with something really cool with Daring Blade over the last few days, albeit as a striker, and I've been starting worry that its not possible.  It's good to see somebody doing something truly savage with it.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2010 - 1:43PM #4
Mommy_was_an_Orc
Date Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Posts: 4,972
Thanks!

Another interesting thing about it is that unlike the traditional push Fighter, it doesn't need a huge amount of Slide - I can get rid of either the staggering weapon or the feats and still have at least 3 squares of slide, which is enough to slide a target from one corner to another. That frees up a lot of room in an LFR-style game where you might not have the perfect item selection(or want a Feyslaughter weapon as your primary choice)

Also, it looks better in a way to use a Longsword until Epic. Lose +Con damage on the Brash Strike, but gain +1 to hit with the Eldritch Strike.

It works a lot better in Heroic than my previous versions as it is no longer just Fighter - Battlemind's Twisted Eye makes for a very nice start to the build...
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2010 - 2:07PM #5
AlphatheGreat
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 1,547
Is this a direct upgrade of the Neon Orange Marker, or do they stand separately?

Edit: nevermind, found the answer in the prior thread. 
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2010 - 7:25PM #6
Arcanamach
Date Joined: Mar 19, 2010
Posts: 137
Me Likey.  Really well put together and functional.

How do you feel the first 1-10 play out with this style character?  Is it best avoided, doable but not great, fully functional, or better?
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2010 - 7:41PM #7
tilobin
Date Joined: Apr 16, 2009
Posts: 614
if you keep the hammer, all but begs for training Intimidate and getting Hammer Shock to make your OA and CC attacks with Eldritch Strike rattling.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2010 - 8:19PM #8
Mommy_was_an_Orc
Date Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Posts: 4,972

Jul 13, 2010 -- 7:25PM, Arcanamach wrote:

Me Likey.  Really well put together and functional.

How do you feel the first 1-10 play out with this style character?  Is it best avoided, doable but not great, fully functional, or better?




Should be better than functional - with melee training, something a Battlemind would be getting anyway, you immediately get the 2 for 1 special - opponent shifts and then moves, you get two shots at 'em. Which will drive DMs nuts as normal Battleminds don't get the CC punishment and normal Fighters don't get the free shift, even on corners.

Jul 13, 2010 -- 7:41PM, tilobin wrote:

if you keep the hammer, all but begs for training Intimidate and getting Hammer Shock to make your OA and CC attacks with Eldritch Strike rattling.





The issue is weapon choice, game, and tier. I don't think Battering Shield stays in there at all if I get the Staggering Weapon. But if I don't, then it helps out a lot with the +1 to Slide as being able to Slide 3 is crucial.

An example of this is the following:
_XE____F
XM_
Y__

Let's say as an example, let's E is looking to shift and then charge F(Friend). M is me. If he gets hit by the CC, then I can slide via the path X to the point Y. Now he's slowed and can't reach F via the charge. I also can block the shift entirely - the goal is to slide the opponent in the square where if he continues the shift, he tries to shift into my square.

If he shifts on the diagonal, then I need slide 3 to get him there.

If I miss, I shift with him and then swat him on the OA.

In general, I think the heavy blade is probably best in paragon(+1 to hit via longsword) and hammer is best in Epic(daze on slow) - my decisions are representing ideal equipment and feats if I don't get that ideal equipment
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2010 - 8:29PM #9
Stardock
Date Joined: Sep 9, 2006
Posts: 387
Let's say that you want to play this character as more of an off-tank and thus up the damage with less regard for defender ability, what would you change?
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2010 - 8:35PM #10
quanta413
Date Joined: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 102

Which will drive DMs nuts as normal Battleminds don't get the CC punishment and normal Fighters don't get the free shift, even on corners.




Meh, although normal fighters may not take mobile challenge (and thus be able to do this), there's an argument to be made that optimized ones will. However you have an advantage over a straight fighter since Mobile challenge is a little bit less reliable since you need to hit with CC to get the shift.

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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Optim.. Ioun Grey Stone Marker: Half-Elf Tank 3.0 Catch-22
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