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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 10:28AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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The new magic missile is an level 1 attack power, it is a ranged attack, and it has a target. But it doesn't have an attack line or a hit line. Should it count as an attack for, say, popping greater invisibility? What about for imposing penalties via the rattling keyword (which you can add via the Righteous Fury feat)? Or triggering a paladin's Divine Challenge damage? Edit: --------------- Summary of the thread, as of post #311. Thanks wrecan!Thesis: Magic Missile (MM) is not an attackTarget Defense Argument: The Monster Manual states that "An attack targets AC, Fortitude, Reflex, or Will." MM does not attack any defense. Therefore, it is not an attack.
- Counter: See all counters to the Combat Section Argument, except the D&E Counter and the "Basic" Counter, and all associated Rebuttals and Replies.
Attack Line Argument: PHB, page 57, states, "The “Attack” entry specifies the kind of attack you make and which of the target’s defenses you check against." Since MM doesn't have an Attack line, it is not an attack.
- Nonexclusive Counter: This only means there are multiple kinds of attacks which exist as attacks independent of any attack line.
- Rebuttal: Since the attack line tells you the kind of attack you make, a lack of an attack line means there is no type of attack to make. I.e., it's not an attack.
- Reply: That only means that all powers with attack lines are attacks, not that all attacks have attack lines.
Combat Section Argument: The Combat Section in the Players Handbook (PHB) lists the elements of "the basic process" that "All attacks follow". These elements are: 1) Attack type, 2) targets, 3) range, 4) an attack roll, 5) target defense, and 6) damage and other effects. Since MM no longer requires an attack roll, it is not an attack.
- MM3 Counter: Many monster powers inflict automatic damage. They have a "Hit" entry, but no attack roll. The Monster Manual 3 definition of "Hit" states "This entry describes what happens to each target that a monster hits with a power's attack." Since these monster powers have a hit entry, even though no attack roll, they are attacks. Thus, powers without an attack roll can be attacks, notwithstanding the "basic process". The "basic process" therefore should not be used as a definition of "attack".
- Rebuttal: The preceding paragraph states "A monster power that has an attack roll is an attack power", not an attack.
- Reply: That it is an attack power does not preclude it from being an attack. That sentence does not exclude it from being an attack. The next sentence (quoted in Counter) states it is an attack. So it is both an attack and an attack power. (Technically, automatic damage powers with a Hit line are attacks, but not attack powers.)
- D&E Counter: The sixth element requires one to "deal damage and apply other effects (page 276)". Taken literally, this would mean that powers that have an attack type and attack roll, choose a target, target a defense, and impose an effect, but not damage (for example, Sleep), would not be an attack. In addition, an attack that imposes only damage and no other effects (like a melee basic attack (MBA)) would not be an attack. But we know they are attacks. Ergo, the "basic process" cannot be used as a definition of attack.
- Rebuttal: Page 276 specifies that the power can deal damage, have a special effect, or both.
- "Hit" Counter: On PHB, page 273, the PHB clarifies that "make an attack roll" is only necessary to determine if the power hits. But MM automatically hits, so it (and all automatic damage powers) is an exception to this rule.
- Rebuttal: PHB, page 273 only states why you make an attack roll. It does not state that automatic damage powers that don't make attack rolls are still attacks.
- "Most" Counter: PHB p.57 states that "Most Attack Powers that require you to make an attack roll." This overrules the more general definition of an attack.
- Rebuttal: "Attack powers" and "Attacks" are different.
- "Basic" Counter: Because it is a "basic" process, not all attacks need follow it.
- Rebuttal: This merely references the fact that "specific beats general". A specific exception would need to be made for MM. The cited rule explicitly states that "all attacks" use the basic process. And "All" is pretty clear.
- FoB Counter: This interpretation means Flurry of Blows (FoB) is not an attack and that seems silly.
- Rebuttal: Silly as it may seem, FoB is not an attack, based on the definition above.
- WoF Counter: Wall of Force (WoF) states that it can be attacked, but it lacks any defense. Since a target defense is an element of an attack under this theory, you have a paradox. The only way to resolve the paradox is that the "basic process" is not intended to be a definition of "attack".
- Rebuttal: WoF has a defense -- it uses its creator's defenses.
- Rebuttal: If the power you employ to attack has a target defense, it's an attack, even if your target lacks that defense.
- Rebuttal: To the extent that the WoF is illustative of any exception to the basic process for combat, it is a specific exception that does not reference MM, and thus does not change MM's status as being or not being an attack.
General Counters Applicable to All Arguments
- CS Counter: Customer Service (CS) has stated it is an attack.
- Rebuttal: CS is often deemed unreliable. In fact they then said that Wall of Fire is not an attack power because it has no attack roll. Neither does MM!
- Reply: Regardless, for the RPGA, this will suffice.
- Developer Counter: Developer Greg Bilsand tweeted that it is an attack.
- Rebuttal: Until he puts it in an errata it doesn't count.
- Rebuttal: His explanation -- equating attacks and attack powers -- makes no sense. His tweet was likely hastily written, as tweets often are.
- FAQ Counter: The PHB FAQ, for Magic Missile (ironically), states,"The initial use of any attack power that has a target line, an attack line, or both counts as making an attack." MM still has a target line, and is thus a power.
- Rebuttal: No substantive rebuttal has yet been offered.
- Attack Power Counter: MM is an attack by virtue of being an Attack Power, which has attack right in the name.
- Rebuttal: All the Arguments above use specific language defining "attack". No specific language states that an attack power is an attack. Given that other mechanics with "attack" in the name (like "attack line" and "attack roll") are not necessarily attacks, this seems like a big assumption.
- Rebuttal: On PHB, p.57 it says not all attack powers have attack rolls and PHB, p.269, 276 say that an attack roll is needed to attack. Therefore, not all attack powers are attacks.
- Rebuttal: Many attack powers, such as stances, walls, etc., would not operate if it were an attack because they would trigger marks and other effects that they are clearly not intended to trigger.
- PHB p.270 Counter: PHB p. 270 specifically states "Shooting a bow or casting a magic missile is a ranged attack."
- Rebuttal: Ranged Attack" is an attack type. PHB pg 56 states that having an "attack type" does not make something an attack.
- Rebuttal: PHB p.270 goes on to explain that a ranged attack is an attack because it has "an attack roll". The text on p.270 was written when MM did have an attack roll. Now MM has been errataed so it has no attack roll. Many powers are errataed without the errata also changing every other reference to the power. This is no different.P.270 is thus errataed.
- Rebuttal: That is an "explanation", not an "exception".
- Reply: Nothing in the rules indicates a distinction between the two. And the "basic process" could just as easily be termed an "explanation" rather than an "exception".
- RBA Counter: MM explicitly states is can be used as a ranged basic attack (RBA).
- Rebuttal: "used as an RBA" is not "is an RBA." RBA is a specific power. That's why the Barbarian powers were changed.
- Reply: That is not why the barbarian powers were changed.
- Rebuttal: MM might be considered an attack only when used as an RBA.
- Reply: If you are using it as a standard action in melee, you are using it as an RBA. Thus, it will always be a RBA, and always an attack.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 10:47AM
#2
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It is an attack, yet it has no attack roll. Things that trigger with attacks would trigger. Things that trigger on "successful attacks," "hits," or "misses" would not.
So for the specifics:
Greater Invisibility would end.
Rattling would work (it even works if you have a Rattling Power that deals damage on a miss).
Divine Challenge (and any other mark punishment that relies on an attack rather than a hit) would trigger.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 10:52AM
#3
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I think you're going to get a couple different perspectives.
There were a couple threads a few months ago about what is an attack. The opinion I've heard most often is if it has an Attack: line, it is an attack. If it doesn't, it is not. This means some Attack Powers are not attacks and some Utility Powers are attacks.
To date I've yet to see an easier test to use, so that's the test I use to answer the question: "Is {foo} an attack?"
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 10:52AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2006
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It is an attack, yet it has no attack roll. Things that trigger with attacks would trigger. Things that trigger on "successful attacks," "hits," or "misses" would not.
So for the specifics:
Greater Invisibility would end.
Rattling would work (it even works if you have a Rattling Power that deals damage on a miss).
Divine Challenge (and any other mark punishment that relies on an attack rather than a hit) would trigger.
It's an attack power, but using an attack power does not mean you are making an attack. Using the new magic missile is no different than a fighter activating his rain of steel stance. There is no attack line in the power, therefore you are not making an attack when you use the power, and do not trigger anything that requires making an attack.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 10:58AM
#5
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It's an attack power, but using an attack power does not mean you are making an attack. Using the new magic missile is no different than a fighter activating his rain of steel stance. There is no attack line in the power, therefore you are not making an attack when you use the power, and do not trigger anything that requires making an attack.
I don't see any reason to believe that activating Rain of Steel is not an attack.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 11:03AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Rain of Steel doesn't have a target, that is one difference.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 11:06AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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Should it count as an attack for, say, popping greater invisibility?
Since it also functions as a ranged basic attack, I reckon so.
not that it matters but: Magic missile popped invisibility in earlier editions too.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 11:09AM
#8
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It's an attack power, but using an attack power does not mean you are making an attack. Using the new magic missile is no different than a fighter activating his rain of steel stance. There is no attack line in the power, therefore you are not making an attack when you use the power, and do not trigger anything that requires making an attack.
I don't see any reason to believe that activating Rain of Steel is not an attack.
You mean other than the fact that there is no attack line, attack roll, or vs.?
IMHO, an Attack Power is definitely different than making an attack. All "Attack" does in "Attack Power" is describe the category and the power, it does not automatically define the power as an actual attack as the attack line in the stat block would do.
It's just my interpretation, right or wrong.
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Default module =/= Core mechanic.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 11:11AM
#9
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Rain of Steel doesn't have a target, that is one difference.
It is a difference, yes. It means that Rain of Steel does not attack anyone in particular, but it's still an attack and I still rule it as breaking Greater Invisibility.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 11:14AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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mpl, would you count Infernal Wrath as an attack? It's kind of the opposite of MM, since it has an attack line, but isn't labeled as an attack power.
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