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Switch to Forum Live View Is new magic missile an attack?
3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 6:54PM #341
Lucas_Blackstone
Date Joined: Sep 13, 2005
Posts: 2,101
I wasn't clear enough earlier. It seems like people are picking what text gets ignored due to errata. If  you can choose to ignore some text, without prompting from the errata to do so, then I can choose to do the same, and so can the next reader.

Ignoring that magic missle is listed as an example of a ranged attack is the same as me saying oh well then I will ignore that ranged attacks need an attack roll. ( Which isn't even true actually, see  second point below). The next reader could say magic missle is errated so they will ignore that ranged attacks provoke. Why? Because that was the OLD magic missile.

If the old text said casting a magic missle is a ranged attack because it requires an attack roll, then I could see people saying that the errata counters it since there isn't an attack roll required.


All that aside, since people will disagree with it anyway because it doesn't support their argument, what about the under the attack section of how to read a power where it says that most powers that do damage require an attack roll. Not ALL powers require an attack roll, but most. Since this is listed in the Attack section of how to read a power, it's relevant in making attacks.

 
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 7:53PM #342
Alcestis
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2009
Posts: 7,882
Yes, we're ignoring things that don't support our argument. Like the fact that errata takes precedence over the books. Right. I don't even agree with a lot of the errata, but I never ignore it. Of the few hundred instances where the books have disagreed with the errata, I just ignore that text. We're not ignoring it without prompting from the errata. We're ignoring it because it disagrees with the errata. Just because it also happens to disagree with your opinion is, believe it or not, incidental.

And all that section is says is that most attack powers that do damage require an attack roll. OK that is "most" not "all" like the part of the book that says "all attacks follow this process" and there is an attack roll required. But let us run with it. The "attack" entry specifies the kind of attack you make. Uh-huh. So attacking requires you specify the type of attack via an attack line in a power, which MM doesn't have. Go on "How to Read a Power." "And which of the target's defenses you check against." Mmm, MM doesn't target a defense. And then it says "if you're attack can target multiple targets, you make an attack roll against each." Funny, Melee and Ranged attacks both say if you attack multiple opponents each one is a seperate attack, defined as a seperate attack by each having their own attack and damage roll.

So, just from that section alone, we can come to the startling conclusion that attacks have attack rolls and target a defense. Strange, I know I've heard that definition of an attack somewhere before.

Also

A power's attack entry specifies the ability score you use to make the attack, any special modifiers that apply to the attack roll, and which of the target's defenses you check against.

PHB3. Gee that seems to agree with me, and is a more recent printing.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 8:56PM #343
Artoomis
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1,755
Common sense says yes, it's an attack.

If that (and lots of other things from the ruels) is not enough, how about the PHB FAQ:

38. What happens if I use magic  missile while benefiting from a power like greater invisibility? Does it count as an attack and  would my invisibility end?


Yes, it does, and  yes, it would. The initial use of any attack power that has a target  line, an attack line, or both counts as making an attack. Because of  this fact, using an attack power like the fighter's rain of steel does not count as making an attack,  since the power has neither a target line nor an attack line.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 9:26PM #344
mplindustries
Date Joined: Apr 5, 2006
Posts: 3,787

Jul 15, 2010 -- 8:56PM, Artoomis wrote:

38. What happens if I use magic  missile while benefiting from a power like greater invisibility? Does it count as an attack and  would my invisibility end?

    Yes, it does, and  yes, it would. The initial use of any attack power that has a target  line, an attack line, or both counts as making an attack. Because of  this fact, using an attack power like the fighter's rain of steel does not count as making an attack,  since the power has neither a target line nor an attack line.


Well, damn.  And to think, there was some clear and direct developer intent available all along.

It doesn't answer what RAW is, but it does answer what RAI is.  An attack power with either a target or attack line is an attack. 

It does not, of course, go into what else might be an attack, though, nor does it say actually say what an attack actually is, just that one particular class of powers meeting certain conditions are always attacks.

Heroes Don't Need Special Gear to Be Heroic - A guide to removing magic item dependency and smoothing out advancement.
Reinventing the Workday: A Shift Towards Encounter-Based Resources - A guide to abandoning daily resources
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 9:40PM #345
Alcestis
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2009
Posts: 7,882
Oh wow. O.o By the logic presented in that FAQ Warden Forms are attacks because they have an attack line and a target line, for the Form attack, actually using that attack isn't an attack because it isn't the initial use of the power. Shifting into the Form is an attack.

And Commander's Strike and Direct the Strike are attacks against your ally. Full Discipline Movement techniques are attacks, because the power has an attack and a target line.

That definition is going to be a nice buff to the Lazy Warlord.

@mpl: No, it is a new FAQ (last couple of days at most). So it hasn't been available for all that long.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 9:51PM #346
mplindustries
Date Joined: Apr 5, 2006
Posts: 3,787

Jul 15, 2010 -- 9:40PM, Alcestis wrote:

And Commander's Strike and Direct the Strike are attacks against your ally.


Actually, it doesn't say they are attacks against the ally, just that they are attacks in general. 

I think it is clear by this FAQ ruling, that you can be attacking without attacking someone.

As for the Warden Form thing, we don't know whether or not the granted attack is attacking or not because we're not actually given a definition for attacks, only an explanation that specific things are attacks.

There is also an argument to be made for the idea that the Warden Form still wouldn't be an attack because the initial use of the power does not have a target or attack line, only the granted later use of it does.  That goes for the Monk movement powers, too.

You're reading it as:
The initial use of any attack power that has a target  line, an attack  line, or both counts as making an attack.

It could, however, quite easily be read:
The initial use of any attack  power that has a target  line, an attack  line, or both counts as  making an attack.

Heroes Don't Need Special Gear to Be Heroic - A guide to removing magic item dependency and smoothing out advancement.
Reinventing the Workday: A Shift Towards Encounter-Based Resources - A guide to abandoning daily resources
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 10:14PM #347
Artoomis
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1,755

Jul 15, 2010 -- 8:56PM, Artoomis wrote:

Common sense says yes, it's an attack.

If that (and lots of other things from the ruels) is not enough, how about the PHB FAQ:

38. What happens if I use magic  missile while benefiting from a power like greater invisibility? Does it count as an attack and  would my invisibility end?


Yes, it does, and  yes, it would. The initial use of any attack power that has a target  line, an attack line, or both counts as making an attack. Because of  this fact, using an attack power like the fighter's rain of steel does not count as making an attack,  since the power has neither a target line nor an attack line.




BTW: This defintion applies for MM.  It may or may not apply in other circumstances.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 10:24PM #348
Alcestis
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2009
Posts: 7,882
That is what it says... it isn't restrictive. "Attack Power with attack or target line." It doesn't specify a part of the power or anything. It says "Attack Power" which is inclusive of the whole power. Warden Forms and Full Discipline powers satisfy both requirements on their initial use, and the Warden Form Attack doesn't satisfy the requirement because it isn't the initial use. Indeed, it is now debateably whether Class Feature, Racial, or Utility powers that have attack and target lines are attacks, since they aren't attack powers.... Dragon Breath isn't an attack... oh, wow. I wonder if you can add a decent stealth score to the infinite Dragonbreath build....

And it says "any attack power." That isn't a specific rule just for MM, that is phrased as a general rule.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 10:29PM #349
Alcestis
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2009
Posts: 7,882
ROFL. Hahahaahahahaah.

Oh man, the Essentials Line is giving Wizards Magic Missile as a Class Feature, so that FAQ won't apply because it won't be an attack power. Hahahaahahahahahaa.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 10:30PM #350
Plaguescarred
Date Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 16,499
@Alcestis  Dragon Breath has an attack roll so it's an attack according to our good ol' PHB. And according to your 100 last Posts. The FAQ doesn't say only Attack Powers are Attacks. It says all Attack Powers with Target lines or Attack lines are attacks.  The rest should fall exactly where it was standing before.

EDIT Go read the Mage again, it says Wizard Attack 1 and it's a Power. Dragon Breath too. Class Feature or not.

You're too quick on the button bro' Laughing
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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