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3 years ago ::
Jul 11, 2010 - 4:57PM
#61
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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The masterplan comment is a great example of something that probably should have been done. I was plesently surprised when I updated MP and found that out and im disappointed in how long its taking the official source.
That would be an example of good code. This SHOULD be a display issue only. All of the data should be in the database. The new format, should only need to be displayed correctly. Based upon how much time it is taking and "explanations" of it being hard to do, means that their product is not an example of good, modern, adaptable code.
Now, if they are actually re-doing all the monsters with the changed hps, etc, (and if it is a static DB of just a copy of the manuals) then that should be just a scripted database change that goes through the monster database and updates the data based on a calulation.
This happens everyday in the real world. The data in databases are meant to be changed very easily, and the data is meant to be displayed in a variety of ways, and the interface that accesses the database should only matter to the interface.
WOTC Podcast:
"The web is a shortcut"
"Piracy was a big thing"
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3 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2010 - 1:17AM
#62
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Date Joined:
Mar 21, 2001
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I think they might actually have more trouble exactly because they aren't updating everything to the new math. That means that, for example, every brute that formerly had the default brute AC needs to be checked now that its AC is the old number, not the new default. Same for any damage codes that were in line with the old defaults. And they most likely want to make sure that any custom monsters that us customers have won't be changing damage dice either.
And not all data is in the database already. The new format for an attack power is defined in MM3 as follows:
[icon] Power Name * Usage
Requirement:
Attack: Type range (target); bonus vs. defense
Hit/Miss/Effect/Sustain Action/Secondary Attack/Aftereffect/Failed Savina Throws/Special:
The Monster Builder does not have fields for Requirement or Target, and they need to add at least the Hit text to every single power and in the process also figure out how that relates to the fact that their database is currently set up so that the first thing that appears after the defense part is the damage.
Melee attacks all need range added (currently they only list Reach X if it is greater than 1, and even then the nomenclature is wrong).
And figure out a way that is intuitive for adding the Miss, Effect, etc entries.
Triggered powers currently don't have that listed anywhere. So unless you know a surefire way to get those organized properly in an automated manner, that needs to be done by hand.
Then do all these things to the 3500 monsters in the compendium.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2010 - 7:20AM
#63
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> Now, if they are actually re-doing all the monsters with the changed hps, etc,
> (and if it is a static DB of just a copy of the manuals) then that should be just
> a scripted database change that goes through the monster database and updates the
> data based on a calulation.
Running a simple script won't work because while the 'baseline' values are a starting point, individual creatures usually vary from the norm in one or more of those areas. This is especially true of damage values (though it also happens fairly frequently with other values), which are often offset by the other abilities or synergies that the creature has.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2010 - 8:23AM
#64
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ARGH!!!! Why does this forum eat my posts! And it always happens when I come by say something nice. Unreal.
Anyway, as I said on Twitter this weekend, if this delay is the result of not just aesthetically updating the Monster Builder, but also updating all of the older creatures' math, I'll be more apologetic to Wizards. If they're going to the effort of making MM1 monsters' math fall in line with MM3 math, I can understand it taking more time.
That said, if this is the case, they really should have made a public announcement when it became obvious they would miss the normal date. All but the hardiest of trolls would have accepted such a big change. There is a big difference between rearranging the furniture and reupholstering it. Masterplan proved that restructuring a stat block is relatively trivial. It's understandable that the same cannot be said of re-doing every creature's statistics though.
Long Live the Lance! Give us 4e DL!
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3 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2010 - 8:57AM
#65
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Date Joined:
Mar 21, 2001
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Masterplan proved that restructuring a stat block is relatively trivial.
You know, I've been hearing this for a while, so I decided to take a look. I installed Masterplan and imported the Angel of Valour (an MM1 monster). With a quick look, I noticed the following outright mistakes the statblock has compared to how things should be in the revised statblock:
- Initiative is positioned incorrectly above HP where it used to be instead of to the right of it
- Perception score is missing outright. Quick test shows that even when you input it manually, it still prints it as Senses on the same line as Initiative instead of below it
- The angel's Aura description has the word Aura an additional time before the description of its effects. Understandably, the Aura icon is also missing
- Attacks still list the action on their title line. Keywords are in their old position instead of following the Attack's title. Blade Flurry is missing the Effect header.
- Attack range for melee attacks is missing. The range of Lightning Strike is incorrectly positioned on the line above the Attack line
- Target for all attacks except Lightning Strike is missing, and even there it is incorrectly notated
- Fiery Blades is misplaced under Triggered Actions instead of Minor Actions due to the fact that Masterplan thinks the Requirement it has is a Trigger. It is also missing the Effect header for the description.
- Alignment and Languages are not only in their old place above Skills instead of above Equipment, but are also written underneath each other instead of alongside each other.
That's eight pretty big layout mistakes in just one monster. Now multiply that by 3500 and see how quick it is to get everything into the new statblock layout even without worrying about number changes. EDIT: Since I already had the Human Bandit written out in the new format in Word for my own use, I decided to post comparison pics.  
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3 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2010 - 8:58AM
#66
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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From what I understand, it is not only a rejigging of the format that the Compendium displays things, but also in the way that the MB handles the information, as well as a rejigging of the data for the upcoming tool.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2010 - 9:14AM
#67
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Date Joined:
Mar 21, 2001
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EDIT: Since I already had the Human Bandit written out in the new format in Word for my own use, I decided to post comparison pics.
Agh... Ignore the naming mistake on Dazing Strike, and the personal change from it targeting Fort instead of AC for the purposes of this comparison.
EDIT: And dagger accuracy, apparently -_-
Note to self: Double-check everything before showing off your work
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3 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2010 - 11:23AM
#68
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I agree that if the delay is the result of them actually applying the errata to the database (and this extended period would be the perfect (if not ONLY) opportunity to do it) they will not only have quieted the grumbling, but earned tremendous good-will as well. As some have mentioned, the numerical aspects of the changes can probably be updated any time - but as long as traits, minor actions, triggers etc. are being streamlined and re-formatted to work correctly with the new system, since they're probably having to evaluate each monster individually this would be the best time to just update everything.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2010 - 3:50PM
#69
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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> Now, if they are actually re-doing all the monsters with the changed hps, etc, > (and if it is a static DB of just a copy of the manuals) then that should be just > a scripted database change that goes through the monster database and updates the > data based on a calulation. Running a simple script won't work because while the 'baseline' values are a starting point, individual creatures usually vary from the norm in one or more of those areas. This is especially true of damage values (though it also happens fairly frequently with other values), which are often offset by the other abilities or synergies that the creature has.
I know all about it. That is part of what I do. We manipulate data in the hundreds of GBs of data everyday. There are plenty of tools and ways to do this if you have an experienced DB person.
WOTC Podcast:
"The web is a shortcut"
"Piracy was a big thing"
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3 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2010 - 5:05AM
#70
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Yeah, I doubt they have an experienced DBA. :P
I doubt they're updating monsters to use the new math. That's not something that would just slip into the tools. Monster stats don't get changed without having errata published, and the next round of errata isn't due for another three months.
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