I agree with all that. But I'm still not sure if I can avoid taking damage by killing my attacker with Infernal Wrath
You've touched on my point - if you get whacked for enough damage by your attacker, you won't get to pull IW, because you'll be unconscious or worse.
The text example of my point about Interrupts is on P268 of PHB:
You've touched on my point - if you get whacked for enough damage by your attacker, you won't get to pull IW, because you'll be unconscious or worse.
The text example of my point about Interrupts is on P268 of PHB:
from DDI] "Interrupt: An immediate interrupt lets you jump in when a certain trigger condition arises, acting before the trigger resolves. If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost. For example, an enemy makes a melee attack against you, but you use a power that lets you shift away as an immediate interrupt. If your enemy can no longer reach you, the enemy’s attack action is lost."
It's the only case where it specifically states you can jump in and potentially stop another action from resolving. The next most rapid is the Reaction, which enables the user to only interrupt movement, all other types of action complete before the reaction:
"Reaction: An immediate reaction lets you act in response to a trigger. The triggering action, event, or condition occurs and is completely resolved before you take your reaction, except that you can interrupt a creature’s movement. If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving (by coming into range, for example), you take your action before the creature finishes moving but after it has moved at least 1 square."
T
Yeah. I did just kill your BBEG with a vorpal frisbee. Problem?
It's the only case where it specifically states you can jump in and potentially stop another action from resolving. The next most rapid is the Reaction, which enables the user to only interrupt movement, all other types of action complete before the reaction:
See, giving me a quote that says you can interrupt with an immediate action is not the same thing as a quote saying that you can only interrupt with an immediate action. You are assuming a general rule that actions can't interrupt each other, and the rules never really say that. They don't even say that you can't take a move action in the middle of a standard action. The intent in that case is obvious, but you can't say it is RAW.
Beyond that, there are a plethora of other actions that in fact do interrupt. Opportunity actions are a whole class, and as you seem to have agreed, any particular power whose effect requires an interrupt will interrupt. So what you should really be saying is that you think, RAI, powers can interrupt only if they explicitly say they do or if they need to interrupt in order to achieve their effect.
Thomas, so you say the Update to the Battlerager wasn't necessary because he'd get the THP after the attack is competly resolve, while they in fact changed it to after so he don't get THP when he Hit and explained why they did so. You fail to see Invigorating do interrupt when it Hit to give THP, this before damages are rolled (Step #05 of the Attack Process)
And it's not even a TA. But it says When X happen, you do Y. Same thing.
A Free Action may not interrupt any other action unless its text specifically entitles it to. The examples you've given are perfect examples of cases where the text of the power overrides the nature of Free Actions and supplies an opportunity for it to act in an interrupt fashion.
So far, though, I see no reason to believe that Free Actions in general should be treated as interrupts.
I agree there is no reason to believe a normal Free Action (non-triggered) can be in the middle of another action. By the way, it would help if you stopped using the term "interrupt" for occuring in the middle of another action, because interrupt has a specific meaning: it resolves before the trigger resolves.
However, there is reason to believe that triggered free actions *may* resolve in the middle of other actions: They must be used in the middle of another action if the trigger occurs in the middle of another action. Whether or not a power resolves when it is used as a general rule is undefined, but there is no RAW ambiguity about the fact that the power must be used when the trigger occurs.
I'm prepared to say that they probably should resolve in the middle of other actions, because I think it is a safe assumption that there is an unwritten rule that unless otherwise said, an action or power resolves when it is used. However, it is possible that the reason there isn't a RAW rule saying this is that the writers wanted triggered free actions to be flexible. Unfortunately, if that's what they wanted then triggered Free Action power writers since have failed ... they forgot to specify timing individually in each and every power.
Interrupt do say you jump in. But TA in general (Trigger) do mention it too in other words. See Bolded part. Trigger on, simply occur in response to, when to use , come into effect when the TA occur etc.....all tell me you jump in when your Trigger arise. And to most people i know...
MM7 : This states the kind of action required to use the Power: Standard, Move, Minor, Immediate Interrupt, Immediate Reaction, or Free. Most Immediate Actions Trigger on a specific event, which is described following the Action type. MM2-7: If a Power requires an action to use, that fact is noted in the Power's description. An Immediate Action's Trigger is noted right after the action type. Some Powers don't require an action to use; they simply occur in response to a Trigger. MM3- 9: A Trigger defineswhen a monster is able to use a power. PHB 56 Trigger: Some Powers come into effect only if a Triggering condition occurs.
I think without the mention "after the triggerring action resolves", a TA come into effect directly when it's Trigger arise. Wether it's an action with a Trigger, or a No Action with a Timing such as Feats or Class Features. When X happen, you do Y. Hence why they updated the BRV and Forceful Challenge (Dragon version) among other things. There is a Magic Shield having a Free Action Power in AV 1 r AV 2 also having this mention, occuring only after the Trigger resolve. Without any other indication, a TA happens exactly when they say they do. On you make an attack, hit, damage, Bloody, reduce to 0 HP etc...right when this happen. Ex. Fighters Mark with CC when they attack this before determining a Hit or Miss or even rolling damage but when making an attack roll. This means their Mark interrupt their own attack sequence as a No Action with the Timing given (without formal Trigger) of when Fighters attack.
I think this is mostly, but definitely not entirely, straightforward. Some triggered free actions are specific as to when and how they occur and others are not.
For a triggered free action that gives bonus damage to an attack (like the daily powers on various weapons) its effect occurs as a part of the triggering attack. After all, it's increasing the damage of the attack. It would also add any keywords associated with any bonus typed damage to that attack and its parent power, for purposes of when type keywords are important, and so on.
For free actions that say that they modify the outcome of a triggering action or event, they do exactly what they say, because their rules are pretty specific about it. Elven Accuracy allows you to reroll that attack roll, so it happens in that attack. It's not granting an additional attack that comes afterwards and it's not occurring before the attack, but rather overriding the results.
Power-granted free actions are described inline in a power's hit line or effect, and usually in these cases they specify that they either happen before or after some other portion of the power.
And then there's the dreaded triggered free action that is its own power and does not specify its timing. In the case of the two varieties of Flurry of Blows, they each have a trigger of a hit, their own target conditions independent of that trigger, and an effect that is reliant upon the targets of the triggering action but that does not modify the result of the triggering action: it does not affect whether or not it hits, it does not grant bonus damage to a hit and it does not apply an additional effect to a hit. Here, I make a dramatic leap and assume that like other minor, move and standard actions that do not modify the results of some previous action, that it happens sequentially, because its contents do not indicate that it happens out of sequence.
The only (somewhat weak) RAW backup to my leap is the "Actions on Your Turn" section of PHB1 (p269) which states that your standard, move, minor and free actions happen in any order you wish, which indicates that they do indeed happen in an order. The specific-beats-general principle then would indicate that a free action that states in its specific rules that it does something outside of an order (like by modifying a previous attack) does as it says but that one that does not specify happens in order like any other on-turn action. A trigger then indicates when something may happen, which to my understanding would place it afterwards in the order.
There may be room for argument as to the nature of triggers and how they affect the order of free actions, but with the vague text indicating how they enable some free actions, it does not specify that it causes them to happen out of order, only that they happen "when" the trigger occurs. "When" is unfortunately ambiguous, possibly meaning subsequently, and possibly meaning coinciding with the trigger, possibly meaning anytime afterwards during that turn, and possibly meaning a few other even more nonsensical things. This ambiguity, in my mind, leads back to the actions-happen-in-some-order principle I described above, especially given that the other types of triggered actions happen before or after the triggering action, not during. The result is that the *best fit* is that triggered actions happen afterwards unless they say otherwise.
Immediate Reactions have specific rules as to when they occur: after the triggering action/event fully resolves, before an additional attack from a triggering power, before additional movement if movement triggers, before any other subsequent action. A triggered free action that does not have any text stating that it modifies the triggering action should be considered another subsequent action taken in order, and the Immediate Reaction's special ability to interrupt *other* actions taken after the triggering action would give it priority.
If one event or action triggered both a non-specifically timed free action (like Flurry of Blows) and a by-nature specifically timed immediate reaction, it should result in the immediate reaction resolving first and the free action resolving second.
Where things are much murkier is when you have a case of two immediate reactions triggered by the same event. It gets even worse when the outcomes of each are potentially mutually exclusive (ie: one does forced movement, another involves a melee attack, so the first could move the target of the second out of reach). That's the sort of case where the only solution is to ad-hoc a tie-breaker by using initiative order, initiative bonus, die rolls, rock-paper-scissors, arm-wrestling contests, the which-is-more-fun rule, the player-trumps-monster-to-minimize-complaining rule, etc.
I do find it somewhat odd that Wizards (being the makers of Magic the Gathering, a game that's pretty much entirely about the order in which effects resolve) left this much room for interpretation in 4E's action handling.
